Yes, I agree there are also Western scholars who doubt the integrity of the Quran. I did not deny this and pointed towards this reality in my previous comments with my use of the word “general” and “most”, thus suggesting the presence of contrary viewpoints. I did not claim that ALL Western scholars accepted the authenticity of the Quran in its entirety. So you need to read very very carefully the next time you decide to “respond” to my comments. You mistakenly took my reference to “Why I am not a Christian” as a “counter argument” to Watt/Bell’s introduction to the Quran! However,I had only mentioned it in response to the parading of Ibn Warraq’s “Why I am not a Muslim” by your friends, as if it was an authoritative and balanced account on Islam.

Your statement that had Ehrman etc. written a similar book on Muhammed, then they “would meet the same response to the Cartoons in Jylland Posten” is nothing more than your wish, desire, and pure speculation. In fact far worse books have come out in the past, present, and continue to roll out on Islam by Western writers which have not attracted the “cartoon reaction.” The vast majority of anti-Islamic books do not generate such reaction from Muslims. So the cartoon issue was a somewhat unique event. But your hidden assumption needs to be exposed in this exercise of speculation: that “Misquoting Jesus” was a lowly polemic and a mere “attack” on Christianity. This is false. “Misquoting Jesus” is a scholarly and sober account of textual criticism for the lay readers by a prominent scholar on the subject, and a very good one at that. The hoopla is merely surrounding Ehrman’s “coming out” story, in which he explains why he no longer deems himself to be a Christian.

Finally, absolutely, one should read counter responses to Ehrman as well and not just accept anyone’s viewpoint merely because it supports our viewpoints. All viewpoints need to be considered and only then one should attempt to arrive at a conclusion. I would suggest the following title as a good starting point for counter arguments: Craig A. Evans: Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.

While your call for balance is commendable, I very much doubt that you would be willing to extend the same courtesy to of balance to Islam. Do you agree that when it comes to Islam we should also avoid acting out of typical biases and avoid accepting something merely because it suits our prejudices?

Thank you also for a typically irrelevant “response.”

Nabiyl correctly pointed out that Uthman ordered the official collection of the Quran and but he then ended with an unrelated and unsubstantiated assertion, that “This leaves open the possibility that the Qur’an today is not necessarily the same Qur’an that Muhammad supposedly got from God.” But the same historical reports which relate the story of the compilation of the Quran also mention that this was done on the basis of the earlier documents and, subsequently, the compiled copies were compared with the existing material and recited publicly and only then distributed to the provinces. This has been omitted by Nabiyl. He also remained quite with regard to the fact that it was Muhammed’s companions who were involved in the compilation process, and Uthman enjoyed widespread public support, notwithstanding the occasional opposition from Ibn Masud. If there were copies of the gospels which were known to have been composed/compiled by the very followers of Jesus, his disciples, would Nabiyl be doubting their integrity and remain skeptical? I doubt that.

Nabiyl wants readers to read “Why I am not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq, but I am sure he would not want them to read “Why I am not a Christian” as an introduction to Christianity and the Bible. He refers to the scholarly study by Bell, which was subsequently updated by Watt. But I doubt he would endorse Watt’s modest conclusions, among them his conclusion that Uthman acted honestly and that there is no reason to doubt the general integrity of the Quranic text - Watts conclusion. Of course, I do not agree with all of Watt’s arguments, but his conclusions are far different from Nabiyl’s.

It is interesting that Christians such as Nabiyl become skeptics on matters relating to the Quran even when their unreasonable skepticism is not shared by many Western scholars, but in the case of the NT they will become unreasonable and naive apologists, who will defend fantastic claims even when the evidence is entirely lacking. I am sure that Nabiyl and Marcus will entertain no doubts about the integrity of the NT writings despite the numerous textual problems we encounter therein, despite the increased variations in the earliest sources (patristic and manuscripts alike). They will entertain no doubts whatsoever about the integrity of the Jewish Bible despite the documentary hypothesis pertaining to the composite nature of the Torah, and its very late mss tradition - the earliest being the dead sea scrolls, removed from the originals by centuries and centuries, and showing increased variations as compared to the later manuscripts. But, in the case of the Quran, even when many Western scholars display no doubts, Nabiyl and Marcus will remain radical skeptics.

Sorry to disappoint you but Marcus is right. During his rule Caliph Uthman commissioned a standard version of the Qur’an. Copies were made of it and were distributed to the various provinces. All other versions were then destroyed, though I can’t necessarily say burnt. This leaves open the possibility that the Qur’an today is not necessarily the same Qur’an that Muhammad supposedly got from God.

Check out, “Introduction to the Qur’an” by Bell and Watt, and “Why I am not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq.

I hate to disappoint you but Marcus is right. It seems that the first official collection of the Qur’an was ordered by Caliph Uthman as various readings of the Qur’an were causing disputes amongst the troops in the various provinces. Zayd ibn-Thabit was commissioned by Uthman to come up with an official version. Copies were made of it and then distributed to the various provinces. All other non-official versions of the Qur’an were destroyed (though I can’t say necessarily burned). Make of this what you will but it does leave open the possibility that the present version of the Qur’an is not the one that Muhammad claimed he got from God.

Also your understanding of Christianity is incorrect. There is absolutely no evidence that Saul of Tarsus had a Satanic vision of Jesus, or hated Jesus’ disciples. After his vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus Saul later visited Jesus’ disciples. He was accepted by them and given the commission to spread the Gospel to the gentiles. This he did. It is all recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. I think you should read it. [And Christians do follow the teachings of James the Just. If you had bothered to check, his letter is to be found in the New Testament.]

And there are other mistakes you make. True Christians do not commit fornication, neither do they engage in ‘blind faith’. In the Gospel of John, Jesus is referred to as the Logos which in Greek philosophy meant “Ratio” or “Reason”. Christians therefore should be rational. Their faith is a rational response to the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. But certainly Christians do eat swineflesh. This is allowed to them as they are under the New Covenant of God’s Love rather than the Old Covernant of the Jews. To this day Jews still avoid swineflesh but for no good reason.

I hope that this has been of some help to you.

Uthman burning the Quarn ? Common, get a life Marcus…..
In the 7th century, Uthman burned the false HADITH, not the Quran.Don’t be such an idiot.The Quran and the hadith is two different things . The hadith is a bit like the bible,it contains the sayings,the teachings , the stories and the actions of prophet muhammad.It is something like the bible where it has narration and writers point of view. Some of them is true and some of them are frogery.Uthman burned the hadith whcih are frogery and lies told by the ex-enemies of Muhammad.

The Quran is a totally preserved recitation.It is a total word of god. The Quran couldn’t be written by Muhammad because there is one verse in the Quran where God told Muhammad not to discriminate in preaching about Islam only to the aristocrate of the Quraisyh,but also to the blind and weak people.Muslim might remeber the part when Muhammad preach to a a Quraisyh aristorcrate and suddenly a blind man came to him,want to hear what he preches.Suddenly his face turn red and that’s the time where God send a revelation telling him to not only preach to the very important people, but also to other people who wants to learn and understand.

The Quran isn’t suppose to be a book, it should be memorised according like an oral tradition and passed on to the next generation. That’s how it was like during those days Marcus. The Quran is like a divine poem that is to be memorised. If you alter the word in the Quran, the recitation of the poem is uncoherent with the arabic text and it sounds awful..Remember the arabic text are connected and link to each alphabets.It is not like hebrew which is seperated andmore flexible…

Marcus, If you read the book of Jeremiah, you will find that Jeremiah condemned “the scribes who wrote the scripture make turn into into a lying pen”. to the Muslims out there, I really encourage you to read the book called “THE JESUS DYNASTY” written by Dr James Tabor. Eventhough the book have somes ceptism about the virgin birth of Jesus, still this Professor who done a lot of archaeological research have found out that the in the new testament there is a jigsaw puzzle which we can extract and use to construct an original gospel which is known as the “Queleche” or the “Q-Source”.
By the way,Christians today didn’tknow that they actually follow Saul of Tarsus,the man who is actually arrogant and hated all the disciple of Jesus. He actually received a “satanic vision” of Jesus, The vision of the “pagan Christ”,the “SUN OF GOD”. The true successor that all the christians need to followtoday if they want to be safe is Jesus’s own brother “JAMES THE JUST”.

Christians should abandoned their idolatry of eating “swineflesh,fornification and not to forget blind faith”.

God willing the book will be publish very soon.

Pray for us.

brother Menj, this authour has written another book that will be released in May i think.

The Transformation of Jesus: How a Jewish Prophet Became God (Hardcover)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....9?n=283155