christIANITY IS DESPERATE RELIGION!

she LIES

This is definitely the weirdest question I have ever gotten about this chapter. Of course, even if correct these claims have nothing to do with my theory. But these claims are absurd. This is what the Greek of 1 Corinthians says:

As in all the churches of the holy, let the women keep quiet in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak, and let them be subdued, as the law also says. But if any want to learn, let them ask their own husband at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in a church. Did the word of God come from you, or to you alone? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual man, let him acknowledge that what I write to you is the commandment of the Lord. (1 Cor. 14:33-36)

There is no plausible logical or grammatical basis for thinking 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a quotation, or anything Paul is arguing against. It is not a question. To the contrary, this is plainly and beyond all reasonable doubt what he is asserting as instructions to the Corinthians (see the parallel construction: 1 Cor. 14:13, 14:26, 14:27, 14:28, 14:29, 14:30, 14:34, 14:35, 14:37). In fact, he says these instructions are the commandments of God (14:37), and not just his own opinions (in contrast to 1 Cor. 7:12 & 7:25). He repeatedly uses the imperative (and once uses the indicative of permission, but never the subjunctive or optative), and there is no verb putting any of this in indirect discourse. So this passage can never be understood as a quotation. Nor is any argument against his commandment to be found here.

Many translations render verse 14:36 as “What? Did the Word of God come out from you? Or did it come unto you only?” but the word “What” is not in the Greek. I’ve also seen some exegetes try to interpret the masculine in 14:36 as a rebuke to men in the church, but the masculine was the inclusive case, and thus could include men and women, and there is no indirect statement here to rebuke anyone for. Instead, with 14:36 Paul is leading into verse 14:37. Paul is saying “Do you claim to be an authority? I’m telling you, these are the commandments of God!” In other words, Paul is being very adamant that verses 14:33-35 are (as with everything that came before them) instructions the Corinthians ought to be following. Though some think there is a contradiction here between this and Paul’s insistance that women pray and prophesy under a veil in 1 Corinthians 11:5, he does not say there that this was allowed in church. Here, he is adamant: in church, this was not to be tolerated at all.

So, too, 1 Timothy, which says, “Let a woman learn in silence, in total submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence” (1 Tim. 2:11-12), because Eve led Adam to sin (2:13-15), the implication being that women will lead men to sin if they are allowed to teach or give orders to men, therefore they should shut the hell up and obey their husbands (Col. 3:18, Eph. 5:22-24 & 5:33; echoed by Titus 2:3-5 & 1 Pet. 3:1-6). So while this clearly does say women must not dominate men, it also says they are to sit in silence and never presume to teach anyone anything. In other words, he is saying they should shut up–unless what they have to say is totally submissive to the will of male authorities.

Refuting the Pope

The Clear Message in Refutation of the Words of the Leader of the Christians

http://www.marifah.net/articles/pope-fawdah.pdf

I have pretty much ignored the evidence your Brother provided. But my question remains valid - of the three main translations I have found, they picked a translation more in line with Shamoun’s claims than anyone else’s. Why is that?

A.R. said on 4 November 2006:”Furthermore even if I agree with you for sake of argument the verse says: “GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEM” OR “GOD FIGHTS THEM” or “GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just expressing his anger over their blasphemy.”

How do you know? - and it is worth pointing out that at least one of those “blasphemies” is fictional in that Jews do not think Ezra was the Son of God.

A.R. said on 4 November 2006:”The verse NOWHERE says that Christians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the translation: May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to understand that God is able to destroy any one. He punishes the guilty with hell-fire and all religions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire.”

Yes but it is a very short step from calling for God to kill someone and deciding ot help God by killing them for them. Arabs do not, after all, get up in the morning and greet their wife by saying “May God destroy you”. They do say such things about Israel though.

By all means, if you cannot win, do not play. Islam has always relied on conquest in the past. Do you think that this attitude will serve Muslims in the present when even in Muslim countries they will have to deal with uppity kafirs who will not be silenced by threats?

PaakMaw said on 29 October 2006:”I wonder what you have to say about the Malays in Indonesia and Malaysia being COERCED, in any way using yr fantastic, and at tines, hilarious imagination into your imaginarily ugly world of Islam.”

I will point out that indeed, Malays and Indonesians were coerced into becoming Muslims. Admittedly in the early days there were conversions by example, by inter-marriage (pagans being tolerant and allowing Muslims to settle) and so on. But as soon as Islam took power it spread in Indonesia as it did everywhere else. The Europeans turned up in time to save Bali but not Java.

PaakMaw said on 29 October 2006:”I will try (not very hard) to imagine how HeiGou’s fantastic imagination will work on my question to him. Tis as follows…

PaakMaw said on 29 October 2006:”“Introduced by various traders and wandering mystics from India, Islam first gained a foothold between the twelfth and fifteenth centuries in coastal regions of Sumatra, northern Java, and Kalimantan. Islam probably came to these regions in the form of mystical Sufi tradition. Sufism easily gained local acceptance and became synthesized with local customs.

PaakMaw said on 29 October 2006:”The introduction of Islam to the islands was nothing other than peaceful. As Islamized port towns undermined the waning power of the east Javanese Hindu/Buddhist Majapahit kingdom in the sixteenth century, Javanese elites FLED to Bali, where over 2.5 million people kept their own version of Hinduism alive. Unlike coastal Sumatra, where Islam was adopted by elites and masses alike, partly as a way to counter the economic and political power of the Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms.””

Sure. The introduction of Islam was peaceful in Indonesia as it was in India itself. But of course Islam soon turned violent when it had the numbers and Buddhism and Hinduism was more or less destroyed except in a few places like Bali. Well, Bali really.

What’s your point?

QUENNEL SAID on 18 September 2006:
Who cares about Muslims being offended. Islam isn’t above criticism just because Muslims don’t want Non-Muslims say anything bad about it.

MY RESPONSE:
It’s all about how you say things. Sometimes two different persons are saying the same thing but one offends you and the other doesn’t. All what the Pope did was state his anti-Islamic statements in a ‘lecture.’ He did not have any one to question him or to criticize what he was saying.

QUENNEL SAID:
Muslims …speak bad about other religions all the time. But do they care if they are offended? No.

MY RESPONSE:
No Muslim religious leader or any Muslim leader of any Muslim state has ever spoken any thing BAD against any religion, in front of the whole world. Yes there are Muslims who criticize other religions and there are Christians doing the same too. While we cannot compare them to the Pope or other religious leaders or heads of states who are supposed to be more responsible and they are supposed to know that the whole world listens to what they say.

Furthermore the majority of Muslims do not criticize Christianity or Judaism for the aggression that the followers of these two religions commit or have committed in the past against them.

“Thus, Muslims do not blame Judaism itself for injustices committed by Jews against Palestinians. Nor do they blame Christianity per se for the crimes committed by Church-sanctioned medieval Crusades; for atrocities committed during the conquest of Spain by Christian armies and the subsequent persecution and expulsion of Muslims; nor for the horrors of the Inquisition, the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre or any number of similar tragedies.”

(Mohammed Al Masry, Viewpoint: History dispels the lies about Islam, Middle East Times, March 13, 2006, ONLINE SOURCE)

QUENNEL SAID:
The Quran speak bad about other religions all the time. But do they care if they are offended? No.

MY RESPONSE:
The Quran not in a single verse EVER speaks bad about any ‘RELIGION!!’ But yes God in the Quran does condemn the wrong beliefs and practices of the some PEOPLE who follow other ‘religions,’ while at the same time PRAISING those followers of the same ‘religions’ who do not hold any wrong belief or who do good deeds!!!!

“Then We sent, following in their footsteps, Our Messengers; and We sent, following, Jesus son of Mary, and gave unto him the Gospel. And We set in the hearts of those who followed him tenderness and mercy…”(Quran 57:27)

“And lo! Of the People of the Scripture there are some who believe in God and that which is revealed unto you and that which was revealed unto them, humbling themselves before God. They purchase not a trifling gain at the price of the revelations of God. Verily their reward is with their Lord. Lo! God is swift to take account.” (Quran 3:199)

“Say: “O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but The One God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.” If then they turn back, say ye: “Bear witness that we are submitted to God’s will” (Quran 3:64)

“Lo! Those who believe (i.e. Muhammad’s followers), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans – Anyone who believes in One God and the Last Day and does good deeds - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (In the hereafter)” (Quran 2:62)

“Surely they that believe (i.e. Muhammad’s followers), and those of Jewry, and the Sabaeans, and those Christians, Whosoever believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness — no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.” (Quran 5:69)

Furthermore one thing is quite clear in the Quran:

“God does not forbid you from showing KINDNESS and DEALING JUSTLY with those who have not fought you for your religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. God forbids you from making friends, ONLY THOSE who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support others in driving you out, those who make such as friends are wrongdoers.” (Quran 60:8-9) I fail to find such a teaching this clearly being said any where in the Bible (or if you can point our some verse?)

God warns his creation and he has to tell us that we are wrong if we are wrong. God also expresses his anger if he is angry over some beliefs or over some wrong actions of his creation. God has to tell the people that he would punish them for certain acts of theirs. God has to tell the people if he does not like them for certain acts of theirs and that his curse befalls on those people who knowing very well that something is bad still practice it! He has to tell them that God’s anger is upon such kind of people. He has to tell them that they are going to face a grievous punishment in the hereafter if they do certain things, which are wrong. He has to tell them that they would face destruction in the hereafter if they, knowing something is bad still keep on doing it.

QUENNEL SAID:
If your religious book claims to be from God and criticizes other religions then IN TURN YOUR RELIGION SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED TO SEE IF IT IS ACTUALLY FROM GOD AND SHOULD ALSO BE SCRUTINIZED.

MY RESPONSE:
Yes but there is a proper way of doing every thing isn’t it? However you do it in this way. You said:

(Quennel said:)If Muslims are upset then they should fault their own stupid holy book. –

This is not the right way. Or if you think it is right then you can go on doing what you are doing, however for Muslims to get offended over HOW you say things is natural.

Islam’s way of arguing is this:

“Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful admonition, and argue with them in the better way. Surely thy Lord knows very well those who have gone astray from His way, and He knows very well those who are guided.” (Quran 16:125)

“It was by some mercy of God that thou (Muhammad p b u h) wast gentle to them; hadst thou been harsh and hard of heart, they would have scattered from about thee. So pardon them, and pray forgiveness for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; and when thou art resolved, put thy trust in God; surely God loves those who put their trust.” (Quran 3:159)

QUENNEL SAID:
Non-Muslims shouldn’t live in a state of fear just because Muslims want us to bow down
and blindly accept their religious beliefs.

MY RESPONSE:
No, Muslims never say that non-Muslims should just accept Islam. I only hear Christian Missionaries saying that the Muslims say so.

It’s like me asking Quennel a question “Have you stopped killing black people?” The question implies that Quennel does surely kill black people and he only has to answer whether he has stopped killing them or not. When in the first place Quennel never killed any black person!!

Similarly if any one says Muslims should stop forcing others to Islam must first show which Muslim is doing that. You may say the terrorists are. Well no! The missionaries even lie on part of the terrorists. Osama Bin Laden never started his fight as some holy war for converting infidels to Islam. The first war in which he ever participated was that against Russia when she OCCUPIED Afghanistan. He himself has been saying in a lot of audiotapes “you take our security and we take your security.” Furthermore when questioned by a journalist about why he killed woman and children when Islam forbids killing any woman or children during war. Osama’s reply was “They kill our women and children, we kill their women and children (-journalist: Hamid Meer- “In the Footsteps of Bin Laden” –CNN). Furthermore you pick up any terrorist no one has ever claimed to be fighting for what the missionaries or some other people claim. No wonder the terrorists quote the Quran out of context and the Islamophobes follow suit.

I challenge Quennel to show me any verse from the Bible, which speaks on freedom of religion, a clear un-equivocal verse that says there should be no compulsion in religion!

The Quran however says that:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion” Quran (2:256)

And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who wills believe, and let him who wills disbelieve; Quran (18:29)

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers… it is not for a soul to believe except by God’s will permission; and He casts doubt on those who have no understanding. Quran (10: 99-100)

And obey God, and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, the Messenger’s task is only to deliver the Clear Message. (Quran 64:12)

And they say: We believe in God and in the messenger and we obey; AFTER THAT a party of them turns away / turns back and these are not believers. When they are summoned to God and His messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come). They swear by God solemnly that, if thou order them, they will go forth … Say: Swear not; know ye that obedience (is better). Lo! God is Informed of what ye do. Say: “Obey God, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn back, he is only responsible for the duty placed on himself and ye for that placed on yourselves. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message) (The Holy Quran 24:47-54)

And those Muslims who protested against what the Pope said did not want the Pope to believe in Islam or anything like that. Did the Muslims start it any way? It was the Pope who like any other religious fanatic accused the Islam and the Prophet of things, which are UN-KNOWN to Islam and the Muslims.

If some Muslim head of the state would have said that what Dan Brown writes in his book “The Da Vinci Code” is true and if he had condemned Jesus (may God’s peace be upon him) for his (alleged) relations with Mary Magdalene or if he had condemned Jesus for killing animals brutally (all these events reported in gospels which Christians don’t believe in but are written by faithful Christians) wouldn’t Christian’s protest?

The Pope has brought up the claim, which religious fanatics bring up, and which is un-true and un-known to Islam. There is no such thing as a Holy War (in Arabic Holy War would be “Harb-ul-Muqaddasa” a word no where in the Quran or any Hadith) in Islam nor was Islam ever spread by the sword. This myth was spread and is spread by no other than the Christian Missionaries or by those who did not have the complete knowledge of Islam or history or those who relied on un-authentic traditions. All un-biased and open-minded eminent historians deny this. And Christians no that well!!! So they come up with pseudo-revisionist history books and use deceit and falsehood to cover up the truth. I cannot say for sure if they follow what Paul said:

For if the truth of God through my lie abounded to his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7-The Bible)

Furthermore I don’t consider any terrorist to be a Muslim in the first place. And God commands me NOT to aid any one who oppresses others whether he be a self-proclaimed Muslim!!!

“…Let not detestation for a people who barred you from the Holy Mosque move you to commit aggression. Help one another to piety and God fearing; DO NOT HELP EACH OTHER to sin, enmity and rancour. And fear God; surely God is terrible in retribution.” (Quran 5:2)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 624.
“Narrated By Anas: Allah’s Apostle said, “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?” The Prophet said, “BY PREVENTING HIM FROM OPRESSING OTHERS.”

Sunan Abu Dawood Book 036, Hadith Number 5098.
“Narrated By Abdullah ibn Mas’ud: If anyone helps his people in an unrighteous cause, he is like a person who tries to pull the camel by its tail, which is falling in the well, and he falls along with the camel into the well.”

QUENNEL SAID:
In the Pope’s comments he claimed that Islam didn’t bring anything new and that
Muhammad brought inhumane practices. He is right and the quran proves it: Say: “I AM NO BRINGER OF NEW-FANGLED DOCTRINE AMONG THE MESSENGERS, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear.” S. 46:9

Muhammad verifies he didn’t bring anything new.

MY RESPONSE:
If you are using the above verse as proof for what you are claiming then I would like to tell you that the above verse no where says that “I am no bringer of NEW DOCTRINE” there are no such words in the Arabic. It only says “I am no new thing” or “I am no innovation amongst the messengers,” which just means that God has been sending messengers since generations; all of them have been mortals like the prophet Muhammad. That is God has been granting prophet hood to many men in the past and the prophet Muhammad (p b u h) has not been granted something new and he is not something, which the world is not aware of (Read Quran 3:144 Muhammad is naught but a Messenger; Messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. –) You choose to use Yusuf Ali’s translation here just because it suits your purpose WOW! All other translators translate this verse rightly.

But I also agree that Islam is nothing new and it’s the same MESSAGE that has been given to all the prophets. The same message that was given to Adam (p b u h). Muhammad (p b u h) is verily not the founder of Islam. All prophets submitted to God’s will. All prophets brought the same message that there is ONLY ONE GOD OF ALL, and that we must be good to his creation. Any thing other than this eternal message any thing new cannot be true!! God has always told us that he is ONE GOD. If some one comes and tells us something new that there are actually 3 persons which are One God is thus a liar because the truth cannot be new. All prophets, the law and all God’s holy books preach ONLY one God of all.

Quran 21:25 And We sent never a Messenger before thee EXCEPT that We revealed to him, saying, ‘There is no god but I; so serve Me.’

And Jesus too called the father THE ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

In this specific sense and in this sense alone the prophet did bring nothing new. (As Quran 41:43 [actually!] testifies)

The following verse also proves my point:

They were commanded NOTHING ELSE than to serve God, making the religion His sincerely, men of pure faith, and to perform the prayer, and pay the alms — that is the religion of the True. (Quran 98:5) —-

Now this verse does not man that no other commandments were ever given. It only means that no commandment OPPOSITE to the commandments, mentioned in the verse, was ever given. Similarly the prophet was given ‘nothing-new’ means that he was not given any commandment that was against or OPPOSITE to the teachings of God. He was given the same commandment, which was given to other prophets. Any prophet who talks of different gods and different criteria’s for getting into paradise (like if you believe in the crucifixion you will be saved) which the other prophets have not taught is teaching NEW THINGS and thus is NOT God’s prophet.

But if you are talking in a different sense than surely the prophet Muhammad (p b u h) did bring many reforms and did bring certain new laws and emphasized on certain things on which other prophets could not emphasize.

In fact the prophet Muhammad (p b u h) was prophesized as the prophet who would teach many ‘new things’ to the world:

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth… John 16:12-13)

The prophet Muhammad made non-religious education compulsory for both men and women. Even for ‘slave-girls’ (Bukhari 46:720)

No prophet other than the prophet Muhammad strove to completely abolish SLAVERY!!!!! Islam strove to end slavery gradually and slowly. It would take a long article to describe all the measures taken by the prophet to finally end it (Quran 90:30 Quran 2:177 Quran 9:60 Quran 4:92, Quran 58:3, Quran 5:89 etc.-these verses encouraged freeing of slaves. And the different measures taken for abolishing slavery and to uplift the status of slaves are described here: Bukhari: Book 46 Hadith Number 695, Book 46 Hadith Number 696, Muslim Book 15 Hadith Number 4078, Hadith Number 4079, Hadith Number 4084, Hadith Number 4082, Hadith Number 4081,Hadith Number 4088, Hadith Number 4094. Bukhari Book 46 Hadith Number 721. Muslim Book 15 Hadith Number 4096, Abu Dawood Hadith No: 5164, Quran 4:36, Tirmidhi Hadith no. 3358, Bukhari Book 046 Hadith Number 728, Hadith Musnade-e- Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 2:4, Quran 24:32, Quran 4:25, Bukhari Book 52, Hadith Number 255. Abu Dawood Book 006, Hadith Number 2304 etc.)

But I would like to say after the revelation of a certain verse of the Quran the Muslims were left with NO CHOICE other than to set free the prisoners of war by taking some ransom or by taking without any ransom as a good done to them. After the revelation of this verse the Muslims were not allowed to enslave the prisoners or sell them as slaves!!!!

When you meet the unbelievers (in the battle field), smite their necks, then, when you have thoroughly subdued them, tie fast the bonds (make captives); then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others (Quran 47:4)

Thus all those captives of war will no more be allowed to be made slaves they will ALL be freed either 1. Through Ransom 2. Or without any ransom. All the wars that the prophet had to fight after this they had to free the prisoners by either taking ransom or without taking ransom and enslaving them was completely forbidden. Finally God revealed that if any slave desired freedom it must be granted to him:

Those of your slaves who seek emancipation (freedom), contract with them accordingly, if you know some good in them; and give them of the wealth of God that He has given you. And constrain not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire to live in chastity…(Quran 24:33)

The Prophet was also told:

It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophet hood, then he should say to men, ‘Be you slaves to me apart from God.’ Rather, ‘Be you masters in that you know the Book, and in that you study (Quran 3:79)
And thus the prophet said:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 046, Hadith Number 728. ONE SHOULD NOT SAY MY SLAVE (Abdi) OR MY SLAVE-GIRL (Amati), but should say, my lad my lass (girl) and ‘my boy.

For the first time, a share for women in inheritance was prescribed (although in the OT in a certain case if the male relatives are not alive then the female takes the property otherwise she gets nothing, Islam on the other hand makes it compulsory that the share be given to females.) The share for the mothers is EQUAL to that of the father’s share and that of the daughters and sisters is half as compared to that of the sons and brothers Quran 4:11)

Men were forbidden to consider the birth of a female child a loss (as the Bible says!!!) and were forbidden to make a bad face at their birth Quran 81:7-9,16:58-59) Muhammad (p b u h) said that women have similar rights as men (see Quran 2:228) Women had to be consulted when taken in marriage and this was made compulsory (Quran 4:19, Bukhari 86:98 Muslim 8:3305 etc.)

For the first time ever animal rights were defined.

Human Equality, end to racism (Muhammad’s last sermon, Quran 49:13, Quran 3:195)
Provided solutions to end poverty (Zakat etc.), and methods to unite people (the Prayers, the Hajj etc.)

Special emphasis on “thinking deeply about God’s creation” and on “looking for God’s signs in it” and emphasis on “bringing the proof for proving your point,” was made in the Quran. (Quran 3:191, 67:3, 86:5, 2:164, 22:43-45, 51:20-21, 21:24, 28:75, 2:111, 23:117 etc.)

Strong emphasis on freedom of choosing faith (as I have already mentioned above).
etc. etc.

QUENNEL SAID:
Narrated ‘Aisha and ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbas: When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apostle came he started putting his ‘Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, “MAY ALLAH CURSE THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 427)

MY RESPONSE:
Both Muslims and Non-Muslims, if they after knowing very well that what they do is wrong, still continue doing it will be punished and are cursed by God. God says:

Not your (the Muslims) desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): WHEVER WORKS EVIL, WILL BE REQUITED ACCORDINGLY. Nor will he find, besides God, any protector or helper. (Quran 4:123)

In the Hadith you quoted The Prophet said “curse be on the Jews and Christians who build their worship places at the graves of their apostles”- so what’s in that? The Prophet’s job is to warn and tell people if they are wrong and THOSE Jews and Christians (who used to build worship places at graves and worshipped those graves. Similar to the Catholic Christians of today who bow down before the idols of Jesus and Mary in the church) so they were told that they were wrong, discussions were made with them. They themselves knew what they were doing was wrong but they continued doing it. God’s curse befalls those who know what they do is wrong but still continue doing it. See Quran [002:159] Those who conceal the clear signs and the guidance that We have sent down, after We have shown them clearly in the Book — they shall be cursed by God and the cursers, [002:160] save such as repent and make amends, and show clearly — towards them I shall turn; I turn, All-compassionate. And see Quran [003:086] How shall God guide a people who have disbelieved after they believed, and bore witness that the Messenger is true, and the clear signs came to them? God guides not the people of the evildoers.
[003:087] Those — their recompense is that there shall rest on them the curse of God and of the angels and of men, altogether,

The Book of Deuteronomy also says:

CURSED is the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abomination to Yahweh, the work of the hands of the craftsman,… (Deuteronomy 27:15- The Bible)

However God is forgiving to those who sin in ignorance:

Quran [016:119] Then, surely thy Lord — unto those who did evil in ignorance, then repented after that and put things right — surely thy Lord thereafter is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

Quran [004:017] God shall turn only towards those who do evil in ignorance, then shortly repent; God will return towards those; God is All-knowing, All-wise.

Quran [006:054] And when those who believe in Our signs come to thee, say, ‘Peace be upon you. Your Lord has prescribed for Himself mercy. Whosoever of you does evil in ignorance, and thereafter repents and makes amends, He is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.’ etc.

Jesus (p b u h) also rebuked the people for doing things, which were hateful in the sight of God:

LUKE 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! For YOU ARE LIKE HIDDEN GRAVES, MEN WHO WALK OVER THEM don’t know it.”

11:45 One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying this YOU (Jesus) INSULT US also.”

11:46 He said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load men with burdens that are difficult to carry, and you yourselves won’t even lift one finger to help carry those burdens. 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. (Luke 11:44-46- the Bible)

Furthermore Paul said:
1 Corinthians 16:22-The Bible ’If anyone does not love the Lord—A CURSE BE ON HIM. Come, O Lord!
But any prophet or God is not against any religion but they only condemn certain followers of different religions. The Quran also says that:

“Lo! Those who believe (i.e. Muhammad’s followers), and those who are JEWS , and CHRISTIANS, and Sabaeans – Anyone who believes in One God and the Last Day and does good deeds - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall NO FEAR SHALL COME UPON THEM NEITHER SHALL THEY GRIEVE. (In the hereafter)” (Quran 2:62)

QUENNEL SAID:
While in the Quran we find this: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. THEY IMITATE THE SAYING OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE OF OLD. ALLAH (HIMSELF) FIGHTETH AGAINST THEM (Arabic: qaatalahumu llahu anna yu’fakoona– Literally-May Allah KILL THEM). HOW PERVERSE ARE THEY! S. 9:30

So Christians should be killed for believing what we want to believe. If this isn’t offensive I don’t know what is.

MY RESPONSE:
Where does the verse say Christians should be killed for what they believe??????

It says “GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEM” OR “GOD FIGHTS THEM” or “GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just expressing his anger over their blasphemy. You love to LIE that is what is offensive!! The verse WHATSOEVER nowhere says that Christians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the translation you LOVE TO AGREE WITH (far from it being offensive to you!) i.e. May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to understand that God is able to destroy any one. He punishes the guilty with hell-fire and all religions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire. How is that offensive?? Jesus said:

Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him WHO IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Gehenna (hell). (Matthew 10:28-The Bible)

But most importantly the prophet had made a lot of discussions with the Christians of Arabia and as a last resort the Muslims and the Christians had even agreed upon doing ‘MUBAHILA’- Mubahila means to pray ardently to God and to pray him in complete sincerity and to humble oneself before God while praying ardently for guidance and invoking God’s curse upon one’s own self if one is a liar. This is actually is a test for the truthful one’s and the liars. Those liars who believe in God and know in their heart what they believe is wrong will not pray ardently for God’s curse to befall them. Although the Christians had agreed to come and the arrangements had been made but they declined to come after wards. The Quranic proposition of Mubahila is in this verse:

And whoso disputes with thee concerning him (Jesus), after the knowledge that has come to thee, say: ‘Come now, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our selves and your selves, then let us humbly, earnestly pray and so lay God’s curse upon the ones who lie.’ (Quran 3:61)

The same were told:

Quran “3:70 Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are witnesses?
3:71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while YOU KNOW?” —

So the Quran was NOT condemning any innocent people who did not know that they were wrong. The Jews and Christians well knew they were wrong but they still kept saying what they well knew was not right and they had themselves witnessed the signs of God. God had even told them of the secret activity that they were involved in:

Quran 3:72 A section of the People of the Book say: “Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back

QUENNEL SAID:
And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son, (A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. THEY SPEAK NAUGHT BUT A LIE. S. 18:6-7 Do you see us killing people and rioting over this verse? Muslims are the biggest hypocrites

MY RESPONSE:
What’s your point? Killing and rioting is always bad. Even if someone says offensive things still killing him is wrong. And why do you think that Christians would be killing and rioting over this verse (18:4-5 actually), which says that those who say God has begotten a son are lying?? How can this be compared to the horrible abuses and blasphemies, which come from the Christian missionaries against Islam? How can this be compared to what the Pope said?

If the Pope had said that it is a lie to say that Christ is not the Son of God or that Christ is not God or that Christ was not crucified are nothing but lies. NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM WOULD HAVE PROTESTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are committing the FALLACY of False Analogy; you are like comparing apples to oranges here. Even the Bible and in fact all religious books call different beliefs as false. No one protests. And why should any one?

Every one has his or her own point of view but that point of view should be presented in the proper manner PLUS as concerns the heads of states or religious leaders they should NOT say certain things (even if they think they are true) when they know what they say could hurt the feelings of people.

Plus if you see what Christians have been doing in the past you will know that Christians HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN KILLING those people who dis-agreed with them. For example every one knows that Galileo was threatened to take back his scientific claims about the earth, which were supposedly against the Bible!

And WHERE DOES the Bible teach being patient when some one abuses your religion or to be patient if some one blasphemes the name of God???????????? In fact the Bible says:

He who BLASPHEMES the name of Yahweh, HE SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH! the entire congregation shall certainly stone him: the foreigner as well as the native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16 –The Bible) I thought Quennel said: Muslims (?) are the biggest hypocrites

Now let me not be a hypocrite and also quote what the Quran says on the same issue i.e. Blasphemy

And God’s are the best names, therefore call on Him thereby, and LET ALONE THOSE! BLASPHEME HIS (GOD’S) NAMES / those who violate the sanctity of His names they shall be recompensed for what they did. (The Holy Quran 7:180)

Furthermore After the Muslims had already fought a war with the un-believers and the un-believers came to fight again, at that time God knew that a lot of abuses against Islam were going to come from their side so what did God tell the Muslims?? Let me not be a hypocrite and state that too:

And you will certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from the idolaters MUCH ABUSE. And IF YOUR ARE PATIENT! And keep your duty, surely this is an affair of great resolution” (Quran 3:186)

So even if I for the sake of argument agree that Christians don’t kill when they hear blasphemies against their religion then I must say that they are CERTAINLY NOT following their religion. In fact they are following the Quran.

And yes certain Muslims do claim that those who blaspheme should be put to death; they usually say that on the basis of hadiths (which are indeed authentic but misunderstood or not understood in the light of the Quran) which propose the death penalty for certain apostates. But still no one of them claims that women should be punished with death if they blaspheme, unlike the Biblical law, which is for both women and men and a woman is reported to be killed by the prophet Moses in the Bible due to her blasphemy. But by saying this I do not at all mean that Islam allows death penalty for men who are apostates or for those who blaspheme, as I said before this is a mis-understanding of the hadiths, which say that.

->And you see the people who riot. All of them are poor people who are tired of living in poverty. They are filled with anger against the West for killing their brethren in Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan etc. In this time all they have to hold to and to satisfy their desolate hearts is their religion and when some one comes up talking bad about their religion so openly, they naturally are not able to bear that.

QUENNEL SAID:
They’re (i.e. the Muslims) no different the KKK who want everybody to follow and be subjected to them.

MY RESPONSE:
Not at all. In fact the Quran allows speaking against injustice in public:

Quran 4:148
God loves not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, EXCEPT where injustice has been done; for God is He who hears and knows all things.

The above verse i.e. Quran 4:148 explains the Islamic point of view. Freedom of Speech is alright as far it does not become a means of abusing others and hurting the feelings of others and as far as it does not make difficult the living together of civilizations in peace and harmony.

I will try (not very hard) to imagine how HeiGou’s fantastic imagination will work on my question to him. Tis as follows…

“Introduced by various traders and wandering mystics from India, Islam first gained a foothold between the twelfth and fifteenth centuries in coastal regions of Sumatra, northern Java, and Kalimantan. Islam probably came to these regions in the form of mystical Sufi tradition. Sufism easily gained local acceptance and became synthesized with local customs.

The introduction of Islam to the islands was nothing other than peaceful. As Islamized port towns undermined the waning power of the east Javanese Hindu/Buddhist Majapahit kingdom in the sixteenth century, Javanese elites FLED to Bali, where over 2.5 million people kept their own version of Hinduism alive. Unlike coastal Sumatra, where Islam was adopted by elites and masses alike, partly as a way to counter the economic and political power of the Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms.”

I, however, suspect that HeiGou will produce something more dramatic created around similar “history”.