The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

The Christian missionaries tend to make the general conclusion that the Qur’an cannot be a text of divine origin because of the unacceptable meanings included in it. Perhaps they are correct in this conclusion and we may be inclined to agree with them due to the following reasons, which are:

    1. The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his daughters.1

    2. The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his neighbour’s wife and plotted to kill him2

    3. The Qur’an does not say a prophet worshipped the Golden Calf.3

    4. The Qur’an does not say a prophet changed his religion, worshipped idols and built for them temples.4

    5. The Qur’an does not say a prophet told lies and that God deceived and destroyed another prophet.5

    6. The Qur’an does not say David, Solomon and Jesus were originally bastards from the seed of Pharez, son of Judah.6

    7. The Qur’an does not say the firstborn of the Great Prophet who was the firstborn of God slept with his stepmother.7

    8. The Qur’an does not say the second son of the same Great Prophet (firstborn of God) slept with his daughter-in-law.8

    9. The Qur’an does not contain lurid details and explicit pornography involving men of Assyria and whores from Egypt.9

    10. The Qur’an does not say John the Baptist, who was the greatest Israelite Prophet ever according to Jesus — though the least in the kingdom of God was greater than him! — failed to recognize his second lord on earth, although this lord followed him and got baptized by him. At least not until he saw the third god descending on this second god as a pigeon.10

    11. The Qur’an does not say the apostle of this god, Judas Iscariot, who performed many miracles in his name and was among the disciples who were greater than Moses and other Israelite Prophets according to Jesus, delivered his god to the hands of his enemies for 30 pieces.11

    12. The Qur’an does not say Caiaphas, the high priest — who was a prophet according to John the Baptist — rejected, insulted and made a verdict to kill his god.12

For all the above reasons, we conclude that the Qur’an, unlike the Bible, cannot be a text of divine origin. bismika-tombstone The Qur'an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

Footnotes

  1. Genesis 19:30-38 []
  2. 2 Samuel 11:1-27 []
  3. Exodus 32:1-6 []
  4. 1 Kings 11:1-13 []
  5. 1 Kings 13:1-30 []
  6. Genesis 38:12:30 []
  7. Genesis 35:22 and 49:3-4 []
  8. Genesis 38:12:30 []
  9. Ezekiel 23 []
  10. Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11 and Luke 3:21-22 []
  11. Matthew 26:14-16, 27:3-9, Mark 14:10-11, Luke 22:3-6 and John 18:1-5 []
  12. Matthew 26:57:68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:54-71 and John 18:12-24 []

52 Comments

  1. Brother AlHaidar, thank you for the kind words. I agree with you that Muslims must step up and answer the questions raised by non-Muslims against Islam. In order to do this, we need to study the issues. Knowledge is an indispensable weapon in the face of ignorance. I disagree with you that our religion has been under attack for only the past six years. It has been under attack from the forces of evil since the very beginning. Those who oppose the truth have tried to extinguish it through various means: polemics, violence, colonization etc. But Islam will go on, no matter how much the unbelievers hate it, inshaAllah.

  2. Interesting discussions.It seems to me that for the Qur’an to be truly divine, one must “show” that the Bible is false!Therefore- NO BIBLE, NO QURAN!

  3. I also thank god for people like ISLAMISPEACE, they are fountains of knowledge, and we must absorb as much as we can from them. Many times Christian brothers have asked me certain questions to try and confuse me. We all need to study like some of the brothers and sisters on this site so we may give them a proper answer. I enjoyed reading your responses to Mariyyah, and I appreciate Mariyyah being a mature person interested in Religion, and willing to learn. Mariyyah was obviously misinformed, or preobably stumbled on a Anti-islam site. It is sad that there are so many polemics, especially on Islam. Our religion has been under attack ever for the past six years, and will continue. We must open the eyes of the people and let them know the truth about our religion.

    I like to let people of other faiths smell my families Jug of Zam Zam water. Its been in my Refridgerator for over a year and it still smells like a garden of roses :) subhanillah

  4. The Qur’an does not say the second son of the same Great Prophet (firstborn of God) slept with his daughter-in-law

    You are right instead the Koran says THe “GreatEST” prophet slept with his daughter in law.

    [33:37] Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, “Keep your wife and reverence GOD,” and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD. When Zeid was completely through with his wife, we had you marry her, in order to establish the precedent that a man may marry the divorced wife of his adopted son. GOD’s commands shall be done.

    Waht difference does the Koran have compared to the Bible.You clowns say tht the Bible and the Torah were corrupted , hence The Koran was sent down to man. Fine, then if this Koran is the corredted vrsion of the Torah and Bible, it shouldn’t contain any of the corrruptions contained in both this texts!What corruption by the way ? What mistake or distortion in the Bible doess the Koran aim to correct? That a man can’t sleep with his real son’s wife but it ‘s okay if he sleeps with his Adopted son’s divorced wife.Wat Big difference does it make? Nothing.

  5. Jazak Allah Khair brother Abdullah for the kind words, but I do not deserve such praise. All praise is due to Allah. By the way, I am a brother :-)

  6. Assalammu’alaikum Wr. Wb.,

    Thank’s God there is person like islamispeace. I hope there are more people like him or her.

    ALHAMDULILLAH, ALLAHU AKBAR, LAA ILLAHA ILALLAH MUHAMMADAR RASULULLAH.

  7. salaam

    lol:intresting i didnt know some of the points and the “divine creditability” of bible.yap,if these are the things present in the bible and its still considered to be the word of God[in its present form]than its right that glorious Quran does not full these this “requierment” lol.

    jazakallah

  8. No response from Mariyyah? Oh well.

  9. GOD prohibiting brothers from marrying their biological sisters after He initially allowed it for Abraham and Sarah:

    “And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. (Genesis 20:12)”

    “Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:22)”

    It is important to know that in the same book of Genesis, GOD Almighty did Speak directly with Abraham. For instance:

    Genesis 12:1-3
    1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
    2 “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
    3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

    Yet, GOD never prohibited Abraham from marrying his own biological sister, Sarah!

    So, Deuteronomy 27:22 is indeed an abrogation to the previous Law!

  10. Hi Mariyyah,

    Any response?

  11. Hello Marriyah,

    I have read through your response and have prepared a counter-response and here it is.

    You said the following:

    “Firstly I was a bit disappointed with your answer concerning peace in the Qur’an I didn’t expect you to list all but at least a few… I also don’t understand the passage you have given the general message is as I said previous its to other muslim’s and only if asked for forgiveness… is this really peace at all … please explain further.”

    To be honest, I am not at all surprised that you found my response to be “disappointing.” You already have a predisposed “understanding” of Islam and the Quran, even though you admit that your “knowledge of the Quran is still young.” This can only mean that you read alot of anti-Islamic material, instead of doing your own research. Anyway, you clearly misunderstood the verses I mentioned. They do not speak of other Muslims, but the unbelievers who waged war against the Muslims. Read the verses again please:

    “If thou fearest treachery from ANY group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
    Let not the UNBELIEVERS think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
    Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
    But if the ENEMY INCLINE TOWARDS PEACE, DO THOU (ALSO) INCLINE TOWARDS PEACE, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
    Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with (the company of) the Believers;” 5:58-62

    It does not speak of other Muslims, but the unbelievers who are geared towards using violence against Muslims. It is in this context that the Quran urges the believers to fight back. However, it also says that if the enemy sues for peace, then it is the obligation of the Muslims to also accept peace.

    You said:

    “Choose not friends from them [unbelievers]. … Take them and kill them wherever ye find them.–4:89

    This act of violence issued by the qur’an fails to include the words ‘if provoked’ but states that because they are of a differing faith they should be killed thus giving the job of god to man. Not very peaceful”

    You have misquoted this verse and also out of context, which is disheartening since you have been going on about how brother Hesham Azmy has somehow misquoted the Bible when he wrote the article, even though you have failed to demonstrate how he has done so. You have not followed what you preach. First of all, the verse is not talking about the unbelievers but the hypocrites. You would have known that if you had read the verse in its context. Let me give you the contextual evidence from Surah 4:88-90:

    “Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
    They (the hypocrites) but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
    Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).”

    The warning is to avoid the hypocrites because of the danger they posed to the Muslims. But again, the Quran affirmed the commitment to peace when peace was possible. Notice that verse 90 says that if the hypocrites are from a group which has a treaty of peace with the Muslim community, then it is incumbent upon the Muslims to honor the truce. Is this not peace?

    You said:

    “The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.–5:33

    Making war I guess is not agreeing with Allah and his Messenger as well as those who as you say persecute muslims, is this fair, does this sound like a book of peace? ”

    The verse cannot be any clearer. It clearly says “making war.” That does not mean not believing in Islam but using physical violence. If they persecute Muslims, the Quran gives the Muslims their God-given right to defend themselves. I cannot understand why Christians feel that these verses are somehow “evil” or “unmerciful.” It seems to me that there is an inherent bias against Islam, and no amount of intellectual reasoning will change that. I hope I am wrong.

    You said:

    “I am fully aware that the Bible and the Torah both talk about punishments such as these for adulterers and the such but if we look into the new testament the story of the stoning of the woman takes place (John 8 1-11) where Jesus states that he who has committed no sin may cast the first stone, therefore saying that these kind of punishments are hypocritical and that no man is able to make that decision. Which is why Christians believe that sinner will be dealt with by God which is why we don’t stone people 4 those sorts of crimes any more…”

    I have two problems with your argument. First, the New Testament did not apply here because it did not exist in the time of David. Therefore, your argument is pointless. What they had at the time was the Law of Moses, and that law called for the stoning of the adulterer or adultress as I showed in my previous response. It is irrelevant what the New Testament says in this case. David, as king, was not tasked with upholding the New Testament, but the Old Testament. The New Testament did not come about until much later. He should have been put to death as the law required. Why was he not? I ask again. Are people of power above the law?

    Second, you evoke John 8:1-11 in your argument that the Law of Moses no longer applies to Christians, even though this is irrelevant to the matter at hand. The problem with your argument is archaeological. You see, according to your own Bible (The New International Version):

    “((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))”

    This is what the NIV says regarding the “Pericope de Adultera.” You can see for yourself here:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/pa.....version=31

    Archaeological evidence shows that these verses were not added to the Bible until hundreds of years of Jesus (pbuh). One of the most famous New Testament manuscripts attests to the absence of the Pericope from the earliest Christian sources and that manuscript is P66 or Papyrus 66, which has been dated to about 200 CE, making it one of the earliest. You can see pictures of it here:

    http://www1.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html

    Scroll down a bit and you will see it below “The Sinaiticus Finds of 1975.” Clearly, there is a problem with John 8:1-11 and it is therefore not suited for your argument. I have done my research. It seems that you have not done yours.

    You said:

    “This relates to your question about David and why he wasn’t given the traditional punishment. I am not a theologian so I can only answer you according to my own knowledge and understanding… David was wrong in what he did and his son was killed as a result I think that is worse then any punishment including the original. However your belief that its not true because he did something wrong I don’t understand David was a man not a God and he made mistakes like any one of us, yes he is a prophet and in his mistake and punishment he still gave the message of God as his punishment reinforced moses’ law , ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’.”

    Why is David’s son killed for the sins of his father? Is this your idea of Biblical justice? In order to punish David, God kills his son? From your words, it seems as if you are not disturbed by this. I certainly am. Why is an innocent child killed for something he did not do and the real sinner gets off the hook? Is the Bible really pro-life. I see all these Christians opposing abortion and yet their own scripture talks of infanticide! It sends shivers down my spine. I mean no offense but this story disturbs me to the core.

    You said:

    “In response to the question about Lot I apologise for not being clear I believe that Lot and Sodom and Gommorah show the same kind of sin but I don’t understand why you wouldn’t accept the story lot in Christianity is not a Prophet he is a normal man who along with his daughters commited sin. That is the topic here disscussing the above about the prophet sleeping with his daughters, he isn’t a prophet. As I said before I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t c why this story stands out any more we have shown the above is wrong and lot isn’t a key figure in the bible so I cant say I have been taught about him enough to answer these questions.”

    First of all, Lot is not a “normal” man. He was visited by angels for God’s sake! How many people do you know that have been visited by angels who delivered God’s word to them. Lot was the recipient of God’s word. God, in his mercy, sent Lot to reform the people of Sodom and Gamorrah, because He never punishes anyone without sending guidance to them first. The people of Sodom and Gamorrah rejected God’s word and were therefore destroyed. They were given a chance and they blew it. So even if Lot did not make prophecies, he still received God’s word. Therefore, he was not a normal person. God was communicating with him through His angels. He was not a normal man. I am sorry to say that your answers are not sufficient.

    You said:

    “I have a question though why do you not accept the stories of David being an adulterer because he is a Prophet and therefore wouldnt have commited such a ‘vile’ crime, then why do you believe in Mohammed? He committed worse crimes then David ever did- he killed innocent people and instructed the killing of the innocent, raped women and instructed the rape of women- ‘taking what the right hand possess’ married a child which today constitutes and paedophilia. Is it not? And rejected god becoz Gods word was making him unpopular and instead said it was ok to believe in al uzzat and minat If I am wrong plz correct me as I say my knowledge of the qur’an is still young.”

    Please give me examples of where the blessed Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) killed innocent people and raped women. This is slander of the worst type, and it is unfortunately quite typical among many Christians, although not all. I can say with full honesty that I have many Christian friends who do not believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a murderer and rapist. They know that history says otherwise; that he was wise, a great leader and a champion of the poor and of women. The Al-Uzza and Al-Manat argument is also false. The so-called “Satanic Verses” myth has been proven to be false. You can read a detailed refutation of this myth here:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.o.....erses.html

    You said:

    “Another question is by stating the the stories of lot and David are wrong are you not going against the teaching of the qur’an.

    Sura 5:68 – Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law (Torah), the Gospel (Injeel), and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.””

    Verse 41 of the same surah states the following:

    “O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith (the hypocrites); or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. THEY CHANGE THE WORDS from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one’s trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. ”

    Also, the Quran criticizes the Jews and Christians from diverting from the truth. Surah 5:65-66 states:

    “If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.
    If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. ”

    The meaning here is that they did not hold fast to the Torah and the Gospel which were God’s words, but instead altered the Word. So, yes the Quran does honor the Torah and the Gospel but it criticizes the Jews and the Christians for changing God’s words and putting in their own. A perfect example is John 8:1-11. Clearly, these verses did not exist in the 2nd century but somehow starting popping up in 3rd and 4th century Bibles.

    You said:

    “Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;”

    You don’t do a good job of quoting scripture. The verse, in its entirety states the following:

    “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

    So you see, it does not forbid Muslims from arguing with Christians. Ibn Kathir wrote that the meaning of this verse is that:

    “anyone who wants to find out about religion from them should argue with them in a manner that is better, as this will be more effective. Allah says: (Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching…) (16:125) And Allah said to Musa and Harun when he sent them to Fir`awn: (And speak to him mildly, perhaps he may accept admonition or fear.) (20:44)”

    There is no prohibition from debating and discussing, as long as it is productive. Whether our conversation is productive or not remains to be seen. I am trying to show you the truth, so it is worth it.

    You said:

    “the scrolls of the ot and nt have been found and authorised as the same now as they were then, they are now in a museum in Jerusalem.”

    As I showed above, this is not the case. John 8:1-11 are not present in “scrolls of the…NT” along with other verses. If you study the Biblical manuscripts, you will find many discrepancies. I don’t think that you have studied the manuscripts and have not done the appropriate research. You simply accept what you have been told.

    Once again, thank you for offering your views. I look forward to your response!

  12. Hi there ‘Islamispeace’
    Thank-you for your reply as i am always interested in your opinions and questions. And I will try my best to answer them to high standard…
    Firstly I was a bit disappointed with your answer concerning peace in the Qur’an I didn’t expect you to list all but at least a few… I also don’t understand the passage you have given the general message is as I said previous its to other muslim’s and only if asked for forgiveness… is this really peace at all … please explain further.

    In my study/interest of the quran I have come across many passages that speak of violence…

    Choose not friends from them [unbelievers]. … Take them and kill them wherever ye find them.–4:89

    This act of violence issued by the qur’an fails to include the words ‘if provoked’ but states that because they are of a differing faith they should be killed thus giving the job of god to man. Not very peaceful

    The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.–5:33

    Making war I guess is not agreeing with Allah and his Messenger as well as those who as you say persecute muslims, is this fair, does this sound like a book of peace?

    I am fully aware that the Bible and the Torah both talk about punishments such as these for adulterers and the such but if we look into the new testament the story of the stoning of the woman takes place (John 8 1-11) where Jesus states that he who has committed no sin may cast the first stone, therefore saying that these kind of punishments are hypocritical and that no man is able to make that decision. Which is why Christians believe that sinner will be dealt with by God which is why we don’t stone people 4 those sorts of crimes any more…
    This relates to your question about David and why he wasn’t given the traditional punishment. I am not a theologian so I can only answer you according to my own knowledge and understanding… David was wrong in what he did and his son was killed as a result I think that is worse then any punishment including the original. However your belief that its not true because he did something wrong I don’t understand David was a man not a God and he made mistakes like any one of us, yes he is a prophet and in his mistake and punishment he still gave the message of God as his punishment reinforced moses’ law , ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’.

    In response to the question about Lot I apologise for not being clear I believe that Lot and Sodom and Gommorah show the same kind of sin but I don’t understand why you wouldn’t accept the story lot in Christianity is not a Prophet he is a normal man who along with his daughters commited sin. That is the topic here disscussing the above about the prophet sleeping with his daughters, he isn’t a prophet. As I said before I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t c why this story stands out any more we have shown the above is wrong and lot isn’t a key figure in the bible so I cant say I have been taught about him enough to answer these questions.

    I have a question though why do you not accept the stories of David being an adulterer because he is a Prophet and therefore wouldnt have commited such a ‘vile’ crime, then why do you believe in Mohammed? He committed worse crimes then David ever did- he killed innocent people and instructed the killing of the innocent, raped women and instructed the rape of women- ‘taking what the right hand possess’ married a child which today constitutes and paedophilia. Is it not? And rejected god becoz Gods word was making him unpopular and instead said it was ok to believe in al uzzat and minat If I am wrong plz correct me as I say my knowledge of the qur’an is still young.

    Another question is by stating the the stories of lot and David are wrong are you not going against the teaching of the qur’an.

    Sura 5:68 – Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law (Torah), the Gospel (Injeel), and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.”

    Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

    If these are accurate sitations then that would also mean that the divinity of the quran is in question because byu saying the these events didn’t happen including the status of Jesus as son of God is against your own qur’an and your qur’an is against itself, because inb one place it says he wasn’t son of God and in the other he says that u shud listen to the bible which say he is and that these stories doid occur? And plz don’t say that its just about the ‘real bible and torah’ and not the one we look at because I am aware of that myth, the scrolls of the ot and nt have been found and authorised as the same now as they were then, they are now in a museum in Jerusalem.

    I look forward to your response.

  13. “truth”- “…we are talking about Christians priests who convert to Islam”

    u have just been given a list of Christian priests who have converted to Islam. Why dont you address that first? Instead, you keep beating around the bush…. otherwise,we will not get anywhere, “truth”.

  14. I we are talking about Christians priests who convert to Islam, how about Imams who convert into Christian? Don’t tell me that they don’t understand Koran.

  15. Hello Marriyah,

    Thank you for your prompt reply. I apologize that I was not so prompt in mine.

    First and foremost, I would like to answer your question regarding Islam and peace. Islam does talk about peace, both the peace we get from worshipping God and peace with other people. With regard to the latter, I believe Surah 8:61 answers your question. It talks about making peace with one’s enemies. The enemies here are those attack Muslims or persecute them. Whether you may or may not know, Islam’s position on war is that it is allowed only when there is persecution against Muslims. When the enemy which persecutes us asks for peace, then we are obligated to seek peace. Surah 8:58-62 states the following:

    If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
    Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
    Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
    But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
    Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with (the company of) the Believers;

    These verses should suffice for an answer to your question, which was a good one.

    Concerning the story of Lot, you said the following:

    “firstly the story about Lot you have recited correctly but this is not a positive event and in fact when God floods the world does he not do it due to such sin that is going on.”

    I apologize but I do not understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify.

    Concerning David and Bathsheba, yes you are correct to say that God sent the prophet Nathan to repudiate David for his behavior. However, this is still not sufficient. The problem Muslims have with this story is why would God choose a man who acts in such despicable ways as His representative to the children of Israel? David makes all these prayers in the Book of Psalms, which are supposed to serve as inspiration for the believers, and yet he behaves like a sexual deviant? As a Muslim, I have a hard time believing that David committed adultery, and then was not punished according to the laws of the Torah! Why was he not executed as the Torah commands? Are people of power above the law? Leviticus 20:10 is crystal clear on the punishment for adultery:

    If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

    This applies to David specifically because Bathsheba was literally his neighbor’s wife, was she not? Even if she was not, he still committed adultery and thus should have been executed. Why was he not? Why didn’t Nathan remind him of the laws of the Torah? It is because of these discrepancies that Muslims reject the story as false. We do not believe that David committed adultery. We believe he was a man of God and would not dream of committing something as vile as adultery.

    You also said the following:

    “sorry can i just add in relation to the story about Lot i didnt make this clear b4 but it wasnt Lot who slept with his daughters willingly, Lot was made drunk and then his daughters had sex with him this is a good reason why you shouldnt drink to exccess. so really it was his Daughters who weren’t Prohets in any way as Prohetdom is not passed down through blood. therefore the belief that a prophet slept with his daughters is in fact wrong.”

    Is not getting drunk a sin? Why would Lot allow his daughters to give him so much alcohol, knowing the apparent prohibition against getting drunk, especially after he witnessed God’s awesome power in the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah? I don’t believe that Lot would get drunk. I think he would have known better. Therefore, I reject the story as false.

    Thank you for offering your views on this subject. I have enjoyed conversing with you.

  16. “No body who truly understands Christianity would follow Islam” ….??

    A “brief” list of former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam….

    Viacheslav Polosin – Former Archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church who heads the administration of the Committee on Relations with Public Associations and Religious Organizations of the State Duma of the Russian federation
    Abdullah al-Faruq – Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church
    Dr. Jerald F. Dirks – Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master’s degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver. Author of The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam (ISBN 1-59008-002-5 – Amana Publications, 2001). He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology
    Anselm Tormeeda – 14th century CE scholar and priest
    Khadijah ‘Sue’ Watson – Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master’s degree in Divinity
    Ibrahim Khalil – Former Egyptian Coptic priest
    Martin John Mwaipopo – Former Lutheran Archbishop
    Raphael – Former Jehovah’s Witness minister
    George Anthony – Former Catholic priest
    Abdul-Ahad Dawud (David Benjamin Keldani) – from Catholicism, former Roman Catholic priest of the Uniate-Chaldean sect scholar from Harvard & a former deacon of United Methodist church
    Yusuf Estes – from Christianity, former pastor & prison chaplain
    Dr. J. Nicholson – PhD in Theology

    Last and CERTAINLY not least…

    Abdul-Ahad Omar (Dr. Gary Miller) – from Christianity, former priest & missionary administration of the Committee on Relations with Public Associations & mathematician

  17. Faruh Rehan, do you really understand Christianity that well? You lie.

  18. I agree with the above however calling other religions unbelievers i dont think is right as we have something to believe in we just don’t believe in Islam, There is a reason why the largest religion in the world is Christianity we are believers in the power of God and Jesus Christ and all the good they brought into the world. The only parts of the QUR’AN that are reputable are the parts lifted from the torah and the bible. The Torahs divinity was proved in the bible and the bibles divinity is proved in the prophecies made in the torah two examples

    Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2…. Matthew 2:1…. Luke 2:4-7.
    – Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
    – Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)
    To be born of a Virgin:
    Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18…. Luke 1:26-35.
    – Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
    – Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

    But where is the prophecy about Mohammed or the last prophet? If the qur’an was divine then it would have been prophesised and Jesus’ death and status as the son of God would have been accepted in it. Why would God send Jesus to speak of peace and then send Mohammed to speak of war?

    No body who truly understands Christianity would follow Islam.

  19. Say: “Oh ye Unbelievers!
    I worship not that which ye worship,
    And ye do not worship that which I worship;
    I shall never worship that which ye worship,
    Neither will ye worship that which I worship.
    To you be your religion; to me my religion.”

    I believe this is appropriate here… God has told us to leave the unbelievers to worship as they wish…. for they will no more follow our faith than we will follow theirs.

  20. To Faith: Oh yes I do understand Christianity well, very well in a matter of fact, and thats why I am a Muslim.

  21. This is my personal opinion. For Muslims, they are proud if they can finish reading the Koran (“khatam”) severals times. The question is, are they really understand the contents and the teachings? for me as a Christian, it’s very hard for me even to COMPLETE and UNDERSTAND one chapter. because you can’t understand the bible without the guidance of Holy Spirit and you have to pray for it. for me that’s why i believe the Holy Bible is Holy and divine text. come on, if you can finish it so easily, than it’s no more than comics book and school textbooks.

  22. Why we judge sins of the past when in front of our eyes, it still happen? Do we hv the right and power to judge others religion? Those who are sinless cast the first stone. I assume that all Muslims who only know to attack other religion (to defend their faith??? i don’t think so..) are sinless and you guys NEVER lie, NEVER drunk, NEVER think about sex, is it? WOW…impressive. then you are at the same level as God, sinless and HOLY..Dream on!!!

  23. Ding dong please read Cahaya’s point i feel it may make more sense to you, the fact of the matter is that the story of Lot did occur but he is not a Prophet and neither were his daughters (previously i did think that Lot was a Prophet to you which is why i called him a Prophet out of respect but i have since been corrected) so the story is untrue as it is titled a above as a prophet sleeping with his daughters.
    Sorry if i didnt make myself clear enough. and yes he was made drunk and they did sleep with him I dont c whats complicated. The act of sleeping with someone when they have been made drunk is different to sleeping with someone willingly is it not.

  24. Marriyah

    Can you please listen to yourself?

    1. Lot was made drunk and then his daughters had sex with him
    2. therefore the belief that a prophet slept with his daughters is in fact wrong

    What???

  25. sorry can i just add in relation to the story about Lot i didnt make this clear b4 but it wasnt Lot who slept with his daughters willingly, Lot was made drunk and then his daughters had sex with him this is a good reason why you shouldnt drink to exccess. so really it was his Daughters who weren’t Prohets in any way as Prohetdom is not passed down through blood. therefore the belief that a prophet slept with his daughters is in fact wrong.

  26. First of all, let me just point out that the Bible is a historical account of God’s dealing with his people … the good, the bad and the ugly.

    For islamispeace and Terrence, don’t just read what is presented here about the bible. The bible has nothing to hide about the sins of God’s people. Read those references in context and see for yourself if the accounts are as lurid as claimed here. If there are “lurid” details, read also what happened to those people involed in those lurid acts.

    Another thing, when Muslims say “prophets” of the bible, don’t you blindly agree on their definition of a prophet. Lot was never a prophet, and neither was Caiaphas the high priest.

    I still maintain that the Koran is not divine. If the Koran is indeed the final revelation from God, and is supposed to make clear all the previous books of God, how is it that the Koran cannot get the stories that are also found in the Bible right? And how can Muhammad simply declare that Jesus was never crucified when that event is a matter of historical fact?

  27. Thank-you Islami peace for your reply and i hope i can successfully answer your questions. Firstly Yes you are quite right these two stories do take place in the bible, and i dont dispute that my issue is with selecting these passages and not telling the full story… firstly the story about Lot you have recited correctly but this is not a positive event and in fact when God floods the world does he not do it due to such sin that is going on.
    The story of Bathsheba and David is a case of intended misinterpretaion firstly yes the story is true but if you read on to the next section (in my bible just under it) God sends the Prophet Nathan to punish David for his sin and the punishment lies in the death of his son (2samuel 12 16-23. Another is shown when we are all supposed to be idol worshippers, firstly these jews were the same ones freed from Egypt who were misguided in their religion and needed something i which to focus so aaron took all the gold and melted it and moulded it into the shape of a Bull/Calf they styarted worshipping it and offering it gifts, whilst this was going on Moses was on the mountain collecting the ten commandments, when God saw what his people were doing he was angery and (exodus 13) wanted to destroy them Moses pleaded for their lives and returned to his people witrh the ten commandments which taught them how to worship unlike their pagan Egyptian keepers (which was all they knew)
    Im not trying to dispute whether or not these events took place im angery that the full story has been cut in order to paint a negative picture of Christianity when your trying to prove the divinity of the Qur’an why cant you just focus on the Qur’an or tell the truth the whole truth the complete story.
    Therr are many negative sides of religion fopr example sites like Ali Sinas which says that your Prophet married a 6-9 year old child, raped a jewish woman named Safiya and spoke the words of satan in his hours of doubt is this true… or is it a fabrication, I dont know but I dont write in to web sites where i dont know the truth and yet give my praise for anothers lies against any religion, and Im glad that you have done some research but others who just congratulate what they want to hear makes me angery.
    Thats my only issue with this page by Azmy.
    Thanks again for your reply…
    Can i ask question that no one has been able to answer for me im not being funny im asking a general question but where does the Qur’an speak of peace. because on most of the web pages that i have been on even the muslim ones they dont say when they do its about peace to your muslim bros and sis and not to others so please reply with answer, im genuinly wanting to know.

  28. Marriyah,

    Kindly show how the “facts we blindly accepted are clearly fake.” You say they are fake, but you don’t say why. Sorry, but this will not count as an intelligent response. Are you saying that the Bible does not say that a prophet slept with his daughters? The story is well-known. Lot’s daughters get him drunk and then have sex with him. Is this not what the Bible says? Does not the Bible describe how David slept with Bathsheba, and then sent her husband out to war so that he may be killed and thus leave Bathsheba for David? Are you saying that the Bible does not say these things? Kindly reply.

  29. In response to the the writing above by Azmy on the divinity of the Qur’an, I guess you are already aware that these are deliberate misinterpretaions and highly insulting to Christian people. Even though I am aware that this site is in response to those who have been anti- muslim (and they are not all christian please note) but I dont believe doing exactly what they are doing to you is the right way to go about it.
    The above only proves that the Qur’ans divinity is based and can only be proved by lies. (your words Azmy not mine)please ammend your mistakes.(try reading the bible this time)

    And to Shery, Islami peace and s.k you rejoiced to soon for the facts you blindly accepted are clearly fake. Sorry for your dissapointment

  30. Arnold,

    God MUST make sense to the reasoning mind. The reasoning mind also understands that it itself is limited, but yet it itself serve a very important function.. to recognise God and that its limitation is a sign to the infiniteness of God.

    Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD
    jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
    jeremiah 17:10 I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

  31. Folks, you might as well give up on this blog. The verbous HeiGou will flood this blog with his baseless claims and accusations to distract and instigate you again. Like what he has done to other blogs in this site. Congratulations, HeiGou. You understand how the stupidity of Muslims work… because they dont know how to ignore you.

  32. I do not defend it, I merely tell people why they are wrong for thinking it’s impossible or illogical. Muslims think God should always make sense to the reasoning mind, and that’s why they think the Quran is superior to the Bible. But I think God is beyond our sensibilities, and if it appears that God makes so much sense, chances are, you’re not reading about God but instead reading about a human invention. Human inventions usually make sense to the human, reasoning mind. God often does not.

  33. DoctorMaybe said on 23 November 2006::”1. there were many christians, including Bahira, who confirmed Muhammad(saw)’s prophethood:as recorded in the sira. additionally, there were many jews who had prefigured the appearance of a prophet that would destroy the idolaters- leading the ansars to embrace Islam-Alhamdolillah.”

    Actually the Muslim tradition claims there were many Christians who confirmed Muhammed prophethood, but it is clear, without too much reading between the lines, this was not the case. Khadija’s cousin declined to convert to Islam. In fact of the four hanif I know of, none of them died as Muslims, but as Christians. The Jews may have had a belief about the coming of the Messiah, but they clearly did not believe he was Muhammed – as can be seen by their resistance to conversion and eventual exile or death.

    DoctorMaybe said on 23 November 2006::”2. according to the catholic encyclopedia, the hijaz was untouched by christian teachings”

    I don’t think that is exactly what the Catholic Encyclopedia says but if it does, it must be wrong because the aHadith make it clear that Muhammed’s wife’s cousin was translating the Bible into Arabic and there were other Christians about – in Yemen for instance. Unless you think the Quran is wrong?

    DoctorMaybe said on 23 November 2006::”3. all Wansborough, whose approach to Islam was copied by crone and cook, did was guess. surprisingly, patricia crone conceded that Islamic literature has some merit, however small it might be. In her own words, “We shall never be able to do without the literary sources, of course, and the chances are that most of what the tradition tells us about the prophet’s life is more or less correct in some sense or other””

    Wansborough does more than guess. He applies modern literary and textual criticism to the Muslim tradition. That approach is not going to go away. The key words in Crone’s passage there is “in some sense or other”. That leave a lot of room for her to interpret Muslim history as her work shows.

  34. Arnorld, how can you say that you are not a christian, considering that you defended the trinity and divinity of christ in some other thread?

  35. Hezham, this is a really stupid argument. The Quran has absurdities as well. And the Hadiths are probably the most far fetched peice of of literature amongst all religion. Moses keeps on correcting Gods command for frequency of praying during Muhammad’s journey? That is an unbelievable, laughable story that’s as ridiculous as anything in the bible. But here is the stupid part that you did. You used flaws in Christianity to make the Quran look divine. But I’m not a Christian and I think that both the bible and the quran are quite absurd little fairy tales. So pointing out errors in the bible means nothing to me. So, since you gave no reason to think the quran is divine and only gave reasons why the bible is not divine, you have done absolutely zero, zilch. That’s like finding out there is a hole in your boat and trying to fill the hole by polking a hole in someone else’s boat. That doesn’t fix the hole in your boat, dummy.

  36. Faruh Rehan: if you do not understand Christianity, don’t come up with that nonsense about ‘Christians’ being lawless because their faith is based on ‘just believe’. The idea of Christian faith’s ‘belief’ in God means that you will believe in God’s plans and God’s version of right and good. Specifically speakin the New Testament (the one that Christians use in order to ‘justify’ why when Jesus came Moses Laws were now deemed outdated), demands Christians to walk a Christ-led life. The key word is questioning ‘what would Jesus do?’. With that doctrine in mind, then we will be led to live a sinless life…

    oh why am i bothering even explaining to you.

    In a nutshell, if your knowledge of Christianity is confined to a peanut-case, then keep it in the case.

  37. If we read the Quran and the Bible enough and with no prejudice and get to know the background of both, we will see a lot of differences between them. In addition we should also need to know how both have come into existence in our world and the ways the ancient people preserve both for modern peole like us.
    A lot of misunderstandings come from wither prejudice or ignorance or both. I reserve my comment.

  38. In response to chaya

    1. there were many christians, including Bahira, who confirmed Muhammad(saw)’s prophethood:as recorded in the sira. additionally, there were many jews who had prefigured the appearance of a prophet that would destroy the idolaters- leading the ansars to embrace Islam-Alhamdolillah.

    2. according to the catholic encyclopedia, the hijaz was untouched by christian teachings

    3. all Wansborough, whose approach to Islam was copied by crone and cook, did was guess. surprisingly, patricia crone conceded that Islamic literature has some merit, however small it might be. In her own words, “We shall never be able to do without the literary sources, of course, and
    the chances are that most of what the tradition tells us about the prophet’s
    life is more or less correct in some sense or other”

  39. I agree with Terence. Perhaps cahaya should dwelve more on why the Bible describes prophets sleeping with their daughters and committing adultery, and less on historical myths.

  40. Oh! no porno?!! How will we intergrate into society?

  41. Adding to the points, I think the most crucial point is that the Quran imposes lots of law, can’t do this, do that, no alcohol, no sex outside marriage, no gambling (big business!!!), can’t wear skimpy “fashion”, no pork, no same-sex marriage, on and on. For the xtian, the law is not there anymore, so hurraay, we can do all that. How could Quran imposes such laws when all they want is to get away with it? No sin, nothing, just believe in Jesus (forget what He says, just believe in Him only) and you will be saved. Don’t forget to wear your cross. It is more powerful than the Lord. You can wear it between your cleavage or draw it on your buttocks or pubic areas. The devil won’t be scared when you mention the Lord’s name, but show the cross and the Devil will turn green, as if he saw another Devil.

  42. Guys, give me a break. Do not condemn other religion. Both Christian and Islam come from the same root, so why fight amongst us? If the Christians believe in Jesus, so be it. If the Muslims believe in Islam teaching, so be it. If you are talking about numbers of peoples convert into Islam, then how about numbers of Muslims convert into Islam by their free will? The choices if up to the individuals. C’mon, believe in what you believe in and STOP comparing and condemning other religions. I’m a Christian and I believe in Jesus. That’s matter for me. I believe in Jesus because He’s the Way, the Truth and the Life. I know for Muslims Jesus is just a Prophet. So what?

  43. Hahahaha…Read and understand the WHOLE bible than u will understand. I won’t explain cos I know no matter how I explain, u guys will keep on attacking Christian. My advice, if u really wants to know about Bible and Christian, go to the right person. There’s no point debating on it like this.

  44. http://www.evilbible.com/ 10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    http://www.stormfront.org/jewish/talmud.html

    Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.

  45. Golly, I am surprised that “cahaya” is still refering to such gratuitous and excrutiatingly presumptuous orientalistic folklore.
    1. Have you not even read or checked or refuted the claims against the Bible?
    2. Well, let’s do #1 first.

  46. How does what is said in another book prove that the Quran is divine?!

    The Quran cannot be divine: Look at the bizarre amalgam in regard to the story of Jesus.

    1. We are told that Jesus is only a prophet of Allah (I did already told you that the rerasons given by Allah as in Jesus breathing air and eating food are irrational reasons to conclude that he was just a man and not a God but again simple and profound Aristotelian logic was beyond your Allah).

    2. We are also told that Jesus was able to create life by breating life into clay birds this indeed makes him a God.

    3. We are also told that Jesus was lifted by Allah which would mean that he did not die and a being that does not die is a God.

    4. Allah declares that the Trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary which is not really the real Christian Trinity.

    So where did Muhammad get all this strange and contradictory information from?

    Well, we know that all of these ideas about the nature of the Christ were already being debated by Christians in the Middle East in the late antique period including Arias of Alexandria, Nestorians, Jacobites, Melkites, Gnostics etc…

    Now the question now would be how did Muhammad the poor theologian transmit such information in the Qur’an?

    1. May be during his travel to Syria he did discuss and listen to what Christians in the Middle East were saying about the matter. I very much doubt that this is what really happened, because after the Arab invasion of the Middle East the extant Syriac, Coptic and Greek sources are _silent_ about anything to do with Muhammad visiting Syria. The people of the Middle East had no clue who those invaders were. Those Arab invaders called themselves not Muslims and not Arabs but: al-Muhajiruun go figure!. As for the story of Bohira (see the Sira) I suspect that this was made up and should not be regarded as real history.

    2. The second possibility is that may be Muhammad learned about such information from Christians living in th HIjaz. However, the Christian and Jewish sources are silent about any such communities in either Mecca or Medina.

    3. Last: I suspect and I agree with Wansbrough that the origin of Islam is from Mesopotamia and not Arabia and that the Arab polity that invaded the Middle East in the early 630’s had no defined religion as of yet and Islam was already being formed from the sectarian debates among Chistians and Jews and the end result was Islam. The Arab polity selected Islam as the religion of the emerging Arab state. I do belive that this is indeed what happened. But this detaches Islam from Arabia and Muahammad from the Qur’an. This fits very nicely with the extant evidence that we have.

    (Extracted from the debate between Sohail and Dhimmi no more at http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/64738)

  47. Aditya, I’m confused. Arent Singhs Sikhs? Kindly shed some light, bro.

  48. Hehehe….. nice way to defend your religion.
    Your brought up good points. Lets see what the christians say.
    I am a hindu BTW.

  49. Very interesting, indeed. What were we Muslims thinking? The Quran has no stories of incest, adultery and murder, but the Bible does. How could we have been so naive? It is so obvious!

  50. You just made a summary of what been said before:-D

  51. The only thing i can say is LOL

  52. a smart refutation, bro. let us see what they’re going to say about this. “divine” indeed.

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