To do good works or saved by the blood of Christ?

Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi

Every Christian believe that they should do good works, that they should follow the law of the Prophets. However they do not believe that a man can be justified by the good works.

“For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith (On Jesus). But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.”1

The above-mentioned teachings and belief of the Christians are based on Paul’s teachings and the New Testament, which are against the teachings of Old Testament.

In Old Testament, justification and forgiveness from God is possible without any faith in Christ and without any salvation through a blood atonement.

“If my people, who belong to me, humble themselves, pray, seek to please me, and repudiate their sinful practices, then I will respond from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land.”2

This is also noted in the following:

“Seek the Lord while he makes himself available;
call to him while he is nearby!
The wicked need to abandon their lifestyle and sinful people their plans.
They should return to the Lord, and he will show mercy to them,
and to their God, for he will freely forgive them.
3

It should also be noted that the New Testament also proves that the beliefs mentioned in the Old Testament were quite enough for justification.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? you empty fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.4

Conclusion

After the (alleged) crucifiction of Jesus (P), if there is still need of doing good works and good deeds for forgiving our sins, then the crucifixion of Jesus is without purpose, for there is already been the way of pardoning our sins, i.e. through good works as mentioned in the Old Testament. Or, if there is no need to do good works and good deeds after believing on the Jesus crucification then it means Christians are free to do crimes and sins.

Therefore this is, in our opinion, a doctrinal paradox and thus if the Christian insists that mankind is saved by the blood of Jesus, we must therefore allege that there is a Bible contradiction.

And only God knows best!

Footnotes

  1. Galatians 3: 10-13 []
  2. 2 Chronicles 7:14 []
  3. Isaiah 55 []
  4. James 2: 20 – 26 []

35 Comments

  1. Hello….I am a Roman Catholic married to a Muslim….These words should not be taken personally as it is the story of my FAITH
    I can truly tell you I see no barriers between my faith and my husband’s…I respect and he respects….but then the question is always there, “So what is the truth?”….the truth will ONLY be revealed to us by the Grace of GOD….I see many brothers and sisters giving opinions about the Trinity and including Mary…which I find them confused…I see some saying and I quote, “Every Christian believe that they should do good works, that they should follow the law of the Prophets” which saddens me that they lack information….As a Catholic, which by the way the word “Catholic” means “Universal” I can tell you all that
    the church of Christ has been persecuted from day one, (Evil never sleeps) Yet the Holy Spirit protects it and it is open to everyone, not just catholics….but it was not always this way….as I was growing up as a child,I saw many catholic hipocrites, even in my family, and since I have been praying the rosary since the age of 5, I was saddened that my role models (family & friends) were not always well behaved….but one day I needed to understnd what my religion meant because my classmates were Muslims, Buddists and Jews and some of my family members were Christians non-catholic…so I was very amazed at the fact that we were all children of GOD but had too too many different ideas, which did not bothered me but instead made me curious to know more about my religion…so as a child’s mind works…innocently I asked My Lord, whom I spoke directly to GOD the father because I did not know Jesus….and asked him to give me a signal of where to find the truth….that signal came when I was in the military at age 18, In a moment of desperation and seeing how unfair some govt employees were, I needed to understand what purpose I had in the military, why did I choose to go somewhere I did not belong at….I was too young… I needed to do many things in life, soooooooo…..the Lord answered me whenI opened the BIBLE my parents’ had packed in my luggage and came across the following verse:
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Colossians 1:15-18
    I had no idea what it meant until I was realeased from the Military for bad eye sight that was not correctable with glasses…….I started working for a Gasket Co in the accounting dept. I met a friend whom was also catholic…..I confided my experience to her and that following weekend she took me to a youth group which later I became the Secretary of and which later I made a retreat called “Encuentros de Promocion Juvenil” which translates to “Encounters of Youthful Promotion” its Intl…here I met HIM for the first time…..Jesus was the revelation to that biblical verse and he pulled me out of the military….anyhow I started to learn more about my faith so I opted in reading the BIBLE more, attending youth groups and being very active in church….and although I was not a child anymore one breezy day I asked myself….when does something you have faith in become so true…..well first of all you have to be in love with it…and second you have to comprehend it, but if at times you don’t agree or understand, Believe that GOD will choose the right moment to reveal himself to you and then you will no longer have any questions, Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free (John 8:32)…..so I then I started to see all the peoples in my life & what we had in common…..and I came to the conclusion that the most important thing in life was FAMILY….so in order to believe a prophet or messenger of GOD, he had to be powerful but not a tirant, he had to be a role model, he had to have a family like all of us (Mom, dad, bros & sis, and for those of us who are single parent children, Mother Mary is our mother and GOD is our father & please, let’s b’careful how we interpret this, GOD’s will we cannot refute) and of course that messenger had to LOVE…everyone….He had to be perfect, he could not believe in killing or war(instead he gave up his life) No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends (John 15:13)
    All those characteristcs only lead to Yeshua…after the Holy Spirit answered me….nothing was ever the same again….But I still love my husband, I still Love my family and I still love my friends…..I truly believe that no one can convert anyone, but only GOD can lead us…..we as humans only have the responsibilty to unite our faiths in the positive for human dignity, let us be the hands of GOD and find Peace among us, to understand a culture we must live within it like I learned with my husband….Respect is the ultimate weapon against conflict….Love is the ultimate purpose for the Birth of Christ, and Love was his message, How could I not believe in HIM and his words full of promises?

    The following explains the Divine Trinity (In the name of the Father, of the Son, and the Holy Spirit) Mary was only a servant of GOD in his plan of the human salvation, and before I speaketh anything negative about the mother of GOD….I first think of my mother who gave me birth and whom I love and respect and I believe no one has the right to speaketh bad about anyone’s mother, specially GOD’s.

    I would love to make emphasis on the following, hence it clearly states that Christian believe that they should do more than good works or deeds, that they should imitate the life of Yeshua, whom is MORE than a Prophet.
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him (Jesus) should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
    John 3:16—Have you seen the banners at sporting events? It refers to the pinnacle verse in today’s Gospel, which contains the heart of the Good News: God so loved the world (the motive) that He gave (a sheer gift) His only Son (Jesus is the gift that was given) so that everyone who believes (the role of faith) in Him might not perish (what we fear), but might have eternal life (the goal).

    I remember the first time I read this passage on my own and really understood/discovered its meaning. I was stunned. It was as if I had never heard it before. Up to that point in my life, I had put the cart before the horse and I didn’t know it. I had believed that if I kept the 10 commandments as perfectly as possible, if I did all the things Jesus tells us to do in the Gospel, then God would love me and at the end of my life, presuming my sins didn’t outweigh my good deeds, I would be saved. God would allow me to enter heaven.

    This view of the Christian life puts all the emphasis on our efforts and very little on God’s grace. It’s actually very ego-centric and arrogant, even though it sounds very good. In fact, it’s a heresy known as Pelagianism. “We can save ourselves, thank you!” In my own life, when the turmoil of adolescence arrived, I began to have little hope of being saved. The cart was now careening downhill fast and the horse was nowhere to be found!

    But what Jesus says very clearly in this passage is something very different: salvation is a gift. It is not something we can earn. Jesus has won it for us. I repeat: salvation is a gift. It is not something we can earn. Jesus has won it for us. The horse must come before the cart: God’s love has to come before any response on our part. If we, by our will power or virtue, could earn God’s love, then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. In fact, He came to earth for nothing. If we can earn salvation, there is no need for Jesus at all.

    Link to complete article: http://www.chnetwork.org/journ.....tify_5.htm

    Link to Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus: http://www.bprc.org/topics/fulfill.html

    Link to Grace video: http://www.gieson.com/Library/.....index.html

    Thank you for your time and may the Love of God dwell in our hearts….Peace to all of Us…..

  2. Grace said, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One”. I understand it as it telling us that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one.

    Grace, I will not be discussing this in length if this was not of the utmost significance and importance to both you and I. Grace, you truly worry me when something SO CLEAR and non-ambiguous as “God is One” can somehow suddenly be into “it telling us that God, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Spirit are one”.

  3. The Bible rejects the ‘atonement’

    To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. (Isaiah 1:11)

    Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (Psalms 40:6)

    For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. (Psalms 51:16)]

    “I am come to end the sacrifices and feasts of blood, and if ye cease not offering and eating of flesh and blood, the wrath of God shall not cease from you, even as it came to your fathers in the wilderness, who lusted for flesh, and they ate to their content, and were filled with rottenness, and the plague consumed them.” (Jesus Christ, The Gospel of the Nazorenes)

    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

    And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

    And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. (Mark 12:30-33)

    To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. (Proverbs 21:3)

    But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew 9:13)

    Jesus will have mercy and not sacrifice; he was not crucified for the ‘sins of the world’, but rather he was sent to put sinners to repentance. He came to preach the discarded teachings of the Torah (Matthew 5:17-20) he came to preach the Gospel (Matthew 4:23) he was Prophet and Messenger (Matthew 21:11) not the pagan ‘crucified Christ’ the Church upholds today.

    Jesus made it clear that salvation is not attained through blood sacrifice, but simply keeping the commandments of God.

    16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

    17″Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16-17)

    Jesus never said “salvation comes through my blood”, he simply told the man that salvation comes through obeying the commandments. The crucifixion is not even mentioned or alluded to. The Old Testament says:

    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Genesis 26:5)

  4. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One”.

    I understand it as it telling us that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. Yup, if you believe in Jesus – you are a child of God.

    But personally, I do believe that we are all loved by God as his children. It’s just whether we acknowledge Him as a Heavenly Father.

    Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as their Father in heaven. Before that, God and man had such a big distance in between. We feared God and looked up to him as something so big and far away. But Jesus came, he closed the gap and brought us closer to God.

    Sorry about the late reply. Been pretty busy.

  5. Lster
    I seem to be repeating myself whilst other seem to turn my words (when the words are right in front of you), First with Leigh now with Lster…. anyway.

    I did not say “If Jesus is God..”
    I said ” If Jesus is equal to God…” which is exactly what Leigh said…

    Lster, if you are not aware that the Church has been wrestling with this problems since the 3rd century , then it will serve you well to research it a bit. Why do you think was the Council of Nicea was convened for? —->>>> To define God. Anyway, back to our question..

    if Jesus is equal to God…..

    1. Did the “Father” exist first? Please be more careful with yr answer. Refer to yr own “scripture”.
    2. Did Jesus participate in the Creation? Again please refer to yr own “scripture”. Better still, find out what yr chursh says.
    3. Where did Jesus actually say, “I am equal to God”. This is a very important claim in the whole of mankind’s history. Whoever makes this claim will make this claim EXPLICITLY. I hope you understand the difference between Implicit and Explicit statements.

    Also, I am still waiting for Leigh, Grace , etc’s comments on the following CLEAR and EXPLICIT verses in yr “scripture”..

    “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One”.

    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Let me guess…. So Jesus’s father is also my father, so I am also a Son of God, huh?

    Folks, stop “playing God” ….. with God.

  6. To Terence:

    Regarding your question of “If Jesus is God, who created who?”:
    because God is the alpha & omega (beginning and end), he doesn’t need to be created. He is a divine being. God is God. He’s always existed. No one needs to create him.

    However, i’m not certain that this is exactly a reply you were looking for..

  7. Grace,

    “I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the Only God?” (John 5:43-44)

  8. Just_Passing_Thru, All prophets are humans with the following unique attributes:-

    1. They receive “wahyi” inspirations by various means, including via the Ruh-ul Kuddus, Jibrail.
    2. Their eyes sleep, but their hearts do not sleep- This is because of the heavy responsibilities they shoulder, their concern for their ummah/people, and their attachment to the love of God.
    3. Asma’- They never commit major sins and will never commit sins in conveying the Messsage from God. They could make mistakes, but God corrects them on their decisions so that they depart from this world cleared of all mistakes made.There were numerous cases in the lives of all the Prophets(a.s.).
    4. Their souls are only taken with their permission. As with the case of David (a.s.), when the Angel of Death approach him in his abode, he answered, “Marhabak bi Amri” “Welcome, with the Command (of God)”
    5. All prophets are buried in the spot they died.
    6. The earth do not decompose their bodies. God forbade the Earth from decaying their physical bodies.
    7. They are alive in their graves in constant praying to God.

    Also, all of us (as babies) comes into this world pure of sins. It is only thru our upbringing and consequently our own choices and deeds that we commit sins and hopefully seek repentance directly from God. It is thus fairplay.

  9. just a question…do forgive me if i seem a bit blur….do muslims consider Adam a prophet?…are prophets sinless, are they incapable of commiting sin?? etc….if yes to both answers, then how did sin enter the world??….thx in advance:)

  10. Also, if Jesus is equal to God, WHO CREATED WHO ??

  11. leigh, I think you lost me somewhere in “The first commandment is to love God ….so Jesus places himself equal with God affirming that he and the Father are one”.

    What?? How on earth did you get from A to B?

    p.s. …first commandment is to love God??? No!! Is this statement so HARD to understand???

    “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One”

  12. Jeferi claims that salvation in the OT and NT is different.
    Basically he misunderstands that these are prophecies and he doesn’t understand the context of prophecies and events in the OT.
    He bases this upon 2 Chron 7:14 and Isaiah 55 comparing these cherry picked verses with Gal 3:10-13 and James 214-18 (note on other occasions he presumably will argue the Bible is corrupted –given the Quran contradicts the Bible regularly but jeferi dishonestly quotes form it if he thinks he can use selected verses support his propositions- but that another story).
    Now we have to go back further to understand the falsity and inadequacy in this argument,
    In Deut 6:25 the Lord commanded the Israelites to obey all of the law, not just part of it. This is critical to understanding that ultimately animal sacrifices and good works are useless (Jesus says the ways of the flesh (such as rituals) are useless. It is the Holy Spirit that is necessary for ewrtanal life (John 6:63) and only Jesus brings that and to his followers who are then born again and become children of God. Note the ones who claimed to be descendants of Abraham were slaves to sin and were not part of Gods family. (John8: 39-59) This condemns not only the Jews who also claimed to be children of Abraham but any Muslim who rejects Jesus as he presented Himself in the gospels and trys to rely on good works when every Muslim knows they have sinned according to the OT and the NT are under a curse for one sin means they have broken all of the law. This is a burden that is too great and separates them from God and salvation is not available, until they repent and follow Jesus as he directed in the gospels.
    The requirement for perfection is confirmed in the NT by both Jesus and James, (brother of Jesus) Jesus said be perfect just as your father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48) (note that Jesus also said he was the same as the Father –God- and he who saw Jesus had seen the Father-God) and James (says in James 2:10 where one who breaks one law breaks all laws (i.e. confirming Deut 6; 25), not quoted by Jeferi as he is either unaware of it or he knew it destroys his argument).
    Now God knew that mankind was unlikely to obey all His laws. Thus the consequences of failing to keep all of the laws was revealed to be God’s curse. (See Deut 11:26-28).
    How can that curse be broken? . By rituals? and Jesus notes the rituals as being inadequate. Jesus demanded mercy, not sacrifice (here read rituals) to make one appear pious (see Matthew 5 for this expose of the uselessness of these public rituals)
    Yet Islam (and its version of salvation) is characterised by rituals said to set up by their God Allah. (And partly by Mohammad who had Allah reduce daily prayers from 50 to 5- on the so called “night journey” to Jerusalem where in fact no mosque/temple actually existed at the time! But that is another story…) .
    Note even although Abraham was credited with righteousness (unknown to the author of the Quran) but he still had to offer sacrifices on altars to have sins forgiven but this had to continue- (see Gen 22:1-15. – the famous offer of Abraham’s son and God Himself providing the sacrifice for sin).Abraham had to continue sacrifices.. . There was never a once was enough sacrifice (yet!).
    The reference by one blogger to sura 29 is is telling, as in fact piety does not require a blood sacrifice (killing an animal) so why does Allah claim it is piety, not blood that counts. Allah contradicts the God of Abraham who required a blood sacrifice for Abraham’s son (not named in the Quran) -see Genesis 22). Yet Mohammad made many sacrifices of animals during his life, as he had no understanding that Jesus had completed his task of bringing salvation to mankind.
    Isaiah 30:15 and Isaiah 55 cant be read in isolation but must be read in context of the earlier Deut 6:25 and 11; 28 together with much of Isaiah that notes that the sacrifice for salvation (the later chapters of Isaiah 52 and 53) confirmed by the statement that iniquities separate us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and it is God Himself, through the word Jesus, whose own arm works salvation. (Isaiah 59:16). The theory of good works as earning salvation makes God dependent on mankind to earn them salvation which demeans and dishonours the creator God. .
    Those who reject Jesus as Lord and Saviour are under the curse of Deut 11; 28 and Isaiah 59: 2. It is only by accepting by faith the Messiah Jesus as Lord and Saviour that salvation will make them acceptable to God.
    All who teach any thing different and especially imams and people like Mr Jeferi are under the curse of Deut 11: 28. . No wonder Mohammad had no words of comfort for his family about their fate on the Day of Judgment. Not even Islam’s prophet had any certainty so where does it leave the Muslim who are taught to obey the prophet Mohammad?Mohammad brought back the curse to all Muslims.
    God had earlier prophesied through Moses in the Torah of the Messiah who would defeat the rebellion and separation of man from God (Gen 3:12).
    He then confirmed that faith is the way to righteousness and is the true religion of Abraham (which the Quran claims Islam follows) in where Abram is credited with righteousness. (Genesis 15:6) Note here Abraham has not undertaken any good deeds at all.
    In Isaiah 54 God reveals that Lord -your redeemer will – (future tense) have compassion upon you (Isaiah 54)
    Now Isaiah 55 in fact in verses 1-3 describes grace itself! Free wine and bread. I will make an everlasting covenant with you (a future event) that is grace through faith.
    Now what does it say about Isaiah 59:2: man is separated from God and Gods plan of salvation cant be here (because as in Isaiah 59:2 the man is separated from God.
    Thus a saviour is needed and God reveals through prophecy that He himself will be that saviuor (Isaiah 59:16)
    Now in Isaiah 56 God reveals his salvation is close at hand (to be revealed in the Word of God /the Messiah). A prophecy.
    Note critically that in Isaiah 59 the Lord declares He will (again future tense) save through his right arm, (not through man’s good works but through grace (Isaiah 55:1-3.)
    Cheery picking John 20:17 and Mark 12:29 as some Muslim bloggers have is again an aversion to context and truth. In Mark Jesus rightly stated the two greatest commandments but this does not deny that the nature of God as stated by Jesus in John. Of course read on in Mark 12 to v 35 to see how Jesus says he is the Messiah Lord and also Mark 14:61-62 where he makes Himself EQUAL to God. Incidentally can Muslims explain why they love Allah (given a Muslim cited Mark 12:29) as Christ commanded His followers to love Yahweh /I AM? In John 20 Jesus was identifying with his disciples as the first resurrected one. He had yet to return to heaven and will come again as the Messiah in heaven who would come again to judge all nations and peoples of all languages (Daniel 7:13-14) Note Jesus in John 20 gave them authority to forgive sins (only God can do this).
    John 1:12 makes it clear that it is Jesus, the word of God who gives his followers the right to be children of God- able to live eternally with God;(this is Gods right and Jesus takes it for Himself consistent with his other claims)
    Of course Jesus demands Peter express his love for Jesus himself -John21:15-17)Why is this?go back to the commandment in Deut 6; 4 and Jesus affirming the first commandment in Matt John to see why, The first commandment is to love God so Jesus places himself equal with God affirming that he and the Father are one-lets leave the Trinity for another time)
    Tt was making himself equal with and as the same as God that caused the Jewish scribes to try to stone him as presumably would devout Muslims if Jesus repeated exactly what he said then today – do Muslims still believe they”honour” Jesus?

  13. Oh yeah, by the way, back to the topic…

    jeremiah 17:10 I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

  14. Jesus has a God….

    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”

    (John 20:17)

  15. Grace, (Q4. What is the SINGLE and most IMPORTANT message of ALL the prophets?)

    “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One”. Deuteronomy 6:4

    “Jesus” re-affirms this eternal call to mankind when questioned by a person of the law….

    “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” And Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is, “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE.” Mark 12:29

    “Jesus” did NOT say “the lord YOUR God is One”. He said “the Lord OUR God is One”….

  16. “But frankly, I don’t know whether Adam and Lot are prophets.”

    Forgot to add that I’m not saying they are not prophets, it’s just that I do not know whether they’re considered prophets.

    Just explaining, in case.. since anything can be twisted and turned these days.

  17. Terence : I’d say the the purpose of these prophets were to bring people to God – say what God wanted to speak to the people and lead them.

    But frankly, I don’t know whether Adam and Lot are prophets. In your opinion, you think the prophets understood God more. But I see it as that they were more obedient to God, obeying in every small detail. And that was how they found favour in God’s eyes.

    Don’t worry, no harm done. It’s all good :)

    Tomas : I still see no point in debates. Debates are usually to find a winner. A forum’s fine, you know? Sharing about each other’s religion without having to attack each other. Let the true one stand out itself then.

    I didn’t say “don’t rationalize religion at all” but I meant that it is impossible to rationalize every act of God and interpret it by our own human standards. Anyway, I’m interested in knowing about your critical thoughts of the trinity that made you convert to Islam.

    Hope to hear from you soon.

  18. Grace, tomas, myself, etc.
    Our purpose is never to see who wins but to seek out the Truth.
    How can one lose when one has found the Truth??

  19. Grace: “I really do believe that this debate doesn’t change anything. And that rationalizing faith, religion or most importantly.. God – is impossible. ”

    doesnt change anything? As I recall, I remember when I was christian evangelical debating a muslim… turns out, that debate I had made me become very critical about the trinity; eventually, I “CHANGED” and became a muslim. SubhanAllah! So debates are good, just as long as there are no animosity, hate and foul language.

    Its possible to rationalize faith, religion and with God, but the rationalization we use is limited and can only be used to an extent. Rationalization is a way to grasp the fundamentals of a religion. Thus, throwing away rationalization entirely is an act of a fool.

  20. Grace, I applaude your “grace”ful response to rhetorics e.g. “we Muslims understand you Christians”. I think we all need to assume sincerity, grace and tireless and relentless search for the truth.
    And to you Muslims and Christians alike.. Rule No.1: Truth does not BELONG to you. It belongs to its Creator. Rule No. 2: Seeking the Truth is akin to evaluating a car, say Mercedes… often we fall into the trap of evaluating the (lousy) driver! Focus on the car!
    Moving on. “Chosen people” are the most misunderstood people in the world. Here I refer to the Jews and Arabs (sons of “Jacob” and Kedar). Whenever, I get the chance, I explain to my Jewish and Arab friends that God “choose a people” not neccessary because they are the best but it may be more to the contrary. My point: To stress-test a new car, do you choose the “best” conditions or the “worst” conditions? (twink,twink) Imagine Moses having to deal with a “chosen people” who, after only 40 days, had reverted, fashioned, gravened and worshiped a Golden Calf! In 40 days!Excellent project management!
    Understanding the Creator. The Creator MUST provide the creation who is LIABLE for recognizing Him the neccessary resources (Faculties, Books, Choice, independence, etc) to do so. The creation, when judged, thus CANNOT excuse itself, and say, “Oops, didnt read THAT book” or “Oops, didnt use the intelligience you gave me” or “Sorry, I am just a follower. Can you blame my Rabbi or priest or imam?”

    Q1. I agree.
    Q2. somewhat disagree. I believe that the all the Prophets understand God more than any one of us. Why? Simple. God CHOSE them as prophets/messengers and us-we are the “messengees”.
    Q3. The ONLY reason we call them messengers is because they have to convey … a MESSAGE! (I apologise but we really need to get the fundamentals agreed). And, as such, prophets may come and go, times may change, but they MUST convey the same MESSAGE.

    Thus, my next query is, what is the SINGLE and most IMPORTANT message of ALL the prophets e.g.: Adam,Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Lot,Isaac,Jacob,Joseph,Job,Jethro,Moses,Aaron,Ezekiel,David,Solomon,Elijah,Elisha,Jonah?

    What is the ONLY purpose of ALL these prophets? That is, if they have only ONE SENTENCE to say to their people, what will it be?

    Again, I must profusely apologise for any discomfort to my approach to seeking Truth and I seek your forebearance in this very important matter.

  21. Oh ya, another thing I’d like to add..

    Me answering or not answering your questions doesn’t mean that Christianity wins/loses.

    I really do believe that this debate doesn’t change anything. And that rationalizing faith, religion or most importantly.. God – is impossible.

  22. Dear Ali,

    You say that “we Muslims understand you Christians”, how is it that you’re asking me questions that the answers you are supposed to understand?

    Nope, I don’t think muslims are “that ancient pagan moon cult of Arabs.”

    Frankly, I have close Muslim friends.. and I see that in the eyes of a Muslim, Islam is as pure and just Christians see Christianity to be.

    It’s just that every religion.. has its own set of extremists. And sadly, these are the people that are seen by everyone and make their own religion look “corrupt” or “sesat”. Even Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism. We all have this in common.

    Yes Ali, I’ve picked up a decent translation Quran for your information.
    Unfortunately, I don’t plan to analyze it and use whatever I read inside to use it to attack Muslims by quoting the Quran.

    I never said I understand Christianity. There are things that I don’t understand, like why did God put the Jews as the “chosen people”. But one thing that I understand from the Bible is that I will never understand how God works.

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    Neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord
    “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    So are my ways higher than your ways
    And my thoughts than your thoughts,” – Isaiah 55 : 8-9

    We Christians believe that on the cross, Jesus who we believe is sinless.. took our sins, and God turned away from him. (We also believe sin separates man from God, I’m sure you understood that) Why is it that Jesus felt thirst, hunger, etc.. Because physically he was human.

    I admit – I do not fully understand Christianity. I can’t explain everything. But I believe in Jesus.

    Well, atheists would say that just because you believe in God, it doesn’t mean He exists!

    But still, I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That’s my standing, and I do hope you’d stop asking questions just to push me to a position where I can’t answer. I’ll say it again, I don’t fully understand Christianity, but my faith in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit has transformed my life enough for me to believe in it.

    Me not being able to answer doesn’t prove the Christianity is fake, or the Islam is true. It justs shows that I’m human, and that I don’t have all the answers for life.

    Ok, why not a question for you.. In your opinion,

    Which one came first, the chicken or the egg?

    Cheers! :D (hope to hear a reply from you for the question)

    * * * * *

    Dear Terence,

    I wasn’t being sarcastic, don’t worry. Ok, here’s my response to your questions :

    Q1 : Yup, they all knew God – in my opinion.

    Q2 : You gotta ask them that though. But at the same time, only God can answer that. Who are we to judge? There isn’t any measurement for “how well you know God”. But I do say that, I know God well enough to believe in Him. Oh yea, please do tell me if you manage to find some measuring unit for the “how well you know God” part :)

    Q3: I assume here that “the very essence of Himself” means Jesus being the Son of God. Well, this is my PERSONAL point of view : At that time (Adam, Noah, Moses) etc.. there were still sacrifices, priests etc. Things weren’t so bad. But the Israeli people kept turning away and sinning. Jesus was revealed through prophets like Isaiah. But at the same time, how am I to assume that God should reveal it to them?

    But I take it that you say that God SHOULD reveal to the prophets that He had a Son, alright.

    “Adam/Moses/etc, I have a son,”

    Haha, it’s quite funny to imagine but.. alright, I take it as your POV.

    I’ll just quote the man of the topic here ok? “No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

    If you ask me “Didn’t Moses, Adam, etc know God?” well, my response will be that they didn’t know him as a father. We believe that this is a special relationship that Jesus brought.

    Sorry for the late reply, didn’t remember this issue till.. recently.

    Ok, you may proceed.

    Cheers!

  23. Grace thank you for yr very concise and polite (I think) response. Grace, I beg of your patience in my submission to follow.

    Question 1: In your opinion, did Adam know God? Did Noah know God? Did Abraham know God? Did Moses know God? Did Joshua know God? Did all the prophets know God?

    Question 2: Do you think Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Job (and the entirety of prophethood) knew God better than you, Grace? Or would you Grace, know God better then ALL of them?

    Question 3: Do you think that God would NOT inform Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron… of something that is of the very essence of Himself?

    Grace, I hope that you will respond to the above questions before I can proceed. TQ.

  24. In that case it could also be 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 = 1 …n

    Providing evidence is not the same as rationalising a baseless concept.

    Misinterpretations you say… classical excuse, just who isn’t misinterpreting to begin with?

    What kind of meaningless gibebrish are you stating “Sincerely call Jesus into your heart, ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand, pick up a Bible and study. It will change your life. You will then be able to understand Christians.”

    We Muslims understand you christians, it is YOU christians WHO DON’T TRY to understand Muslims – you still think we’re some ancient pagan moon cult of Arabs. Have you ever picked up a decent translation of the Quran and tried to study it without looking through the tinted eyes of Islam Bashers – note DECENT transalation not one made by an Islam Hater? AS the part about changing your life – Martha Stewart is alleged to have also changed lives – changing lives is not a criterion for establihing whether a book is divine!

    You mean first accept the religion and THEN UNDERSTAND IT rather than the other way around – why don’t you try the same thing with other religions ask Buddha to guide you or ask GOD HIMSELF.

    You can always ‘claim’ to understand a religion ONCE you’ve already INTENDED to accept it without making the oft repeated excuse of ‘THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDED ME’.

    Otherwise what would be the point in understadning if you’ve already accepted it. YOu guys donot understand this trinitarian concept upon which your entire salvation is alleged to be based, you just rationalise in order to make this concept seem understandable to you.

    If according to you Jesus is God because steam is like water then it means that God is like Jesus who felt hunger, thirst, who prayed to God [God praying and submitting to God????????] who SORROWED and PRAYED to LET THIS CUP PASS FROM HIM Who YELLED IN DESPAIR MY LORD MY LORD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME.. doesn’t sound very godly to me.

    But you guys are smart you can probably rationalise that too.

    Just by saying that you know two people who believe in the tooth fairy DOESN’T MEAN the tooth fairy exists!

  25. Terence : Maybe the problem is that people think 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

    Maybe it’s just 1 = 1 = 1

    Like how water is ice and steam.

  26. There are no contradictions in the Bible, only misinterpretations.

  27. pvb: I understand yr good intentions.
    However, I hope you are listening to your own words..”the simple fact that the Bible (are) words sent to us by GOD through letters written by different people to different communities”.

    “letters written by different people”?? “Letters”?? “people”?? I thought you said “words sent to us by GOD”. That is a BIG claim. You seem to be a very highly motivated person. Pls be kind and fair to yourself and think about what you have just said…”written by different people” and yet you accept it as “Word of God”??

    Do you know what “Word of God” means? It means DIVINE REVELATIONs! Not letters of men!

    pvb, it is not a “simple fact”. In fact, this is “THE FACT”!!! …that it is just LETTERS from some people to another!

    I know what you will be saying next. These are people INSPIRED by something called the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Even if these “inspired people” have NEVER met Jesus? Even if these people have nothing to prove their claims?? Once, a christian friend in this site mentioned that “you dont expect (even) a child to accept that 1+1=2”. So how can you expect adults to accept such a great claim that “hey, this is from God. I was inspired yesterday by the Holy Ghost.”

    p.s. Also, how can you expect adults to accept 1+1+1=1?

  28. Here’s a promise to you.

    Sincerely call Jesus into your heart, ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand, pick up a Bible and study. It will change your life. You will then be able to understand Christians.

    You don’t even have to pick up the whole Bible. Pick up just the New Testament. Once you understand the New Testament with the help of the Holy Spirit, then tackle the Old Testament.

  29. Many do not understand the “contradictions” in the Bible, but it is easily explained by the simple fact that the Bible words sent to us by GOD through letters written by different people to different communities.

    Some communities needed reminding that they needed to do works too or their faith would be dead. Other communities might have been proud of their works and needed to be reminded that no work could erase all their sins, or that works were more important then simple faith.

  30. Basically, anyone who “believes on the Jesus crucifiction” (as you put it) would heed Jesus’ call to love one another, and obey God.

    Which religion portrays God as someone who commands you to sin?

    I do believe that Paul was meaning that if you do good works, but do not believe in Jesus (his crucifiction, resurrection, Son of God, etc) – you aren’t saved.

    My understanding to what Paul said : Good works but no belief in Jesus = not saved
    My understanding to what Peter said : Believe in Jesus, but does not do good works (as Jesus has told us to) = not saved

    My belief on this whole topic for Christians : Believe, and obey Jesus’ command to ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength” and “‘Love your neighbor as yourself” – and you will be saved.

  31. Linda need a further half an hour to accept that Peter contradicts Paul in this aspect. She is short of saying ‘Yes this is contradiction in the bible’.

  32. I would like to comment on Linda’s position with regards to the concept of Atonement and Sacrifice. I understand your perspective very well, however we Muslims assert that ritual sacrifice prior to the advent of Christ (may the peace of God be upon him) was not mandatory in order to attain divine pardon.

    The Old Testament indeed mentions and commands these rituals to be performed, in certain situations for certain people or individuals. Our opinion is that sacrifice was deemed more praiseworthy and meritorious in the sight of the Lord but was not adopted as compulsory. As is evident in the Bible, the Prophets of old preached a faith of repentance and return to God (most high):

    “This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.” [Isaiah 30: 15]

    It is our understanding that the practise of sacrifice for the purpose of atonement was later abrogated by Jesus, and was not observed by all Prophets and Messengers. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) encouraged sacrificial offerings (during their proper times as specified) as a means of attaining piety and helping to feed the needy. Our Lord states:

    “It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God. It is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify God for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.” [Qur’an, 22:37]

    Regards,

    Yusuf

  33. Calling practitioner of Islam as “Muslims” instead of “Moslems” is closer and truer to the arabic pronounciation.

  34. Basically this articles is intended to refute evangelical christians not catholics.(i think)

  35. It would seem that there is not only a poor understanding of Islam by some Christians, but also a poor understanding of Christianity by some Moslems.

    Many Christian denominations as well as individual Christians have somewhat different views regarding faith and works. The conflict is also scriptural between the writings of Peter and those of Paul. The Roman Catholics tend more towards Peter’s writings. Those of the Reformed Tradition, or Protestants, lean more so on Paul’s writings.

    The laws that were no longer needed were the laws of ritual sacrifice for forgiveness. Under the laws of Moses, certain sacrificices were required to complete atonement for sins. One wasn’t simply forgiven. In Christianity, these laws of sacrifice are no longer needed because atonement has been given through Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross. There at least five different Atonement theories in Chritianity if not more.

    Doing good works or deeds is not the same thing as forgiveness. Forgiveness is for our sins. Good works do not “make up” or cover for sins. Christians believe they are forgiven by faith alone. There is no need to perform the atonement ritual sacrifices. It is that faith in God’s eternal Mercy and Compassion as evidenced by Jesus, that one goes forth and joyously does good works. All of the credit goes to God because of His eternal Mercy.

    To simply sum it up:
    Paul’s view:
    If one does good works, but has no faith in God’s Eternal Mercy then those works do not glorify God and the gift of salvation though Jesus. Therefore, one’s “good works” mean nothing. In other words, according to Paul’s writings: Christians are saved by faith alone and not works

    Peter’s View: If one has faith, but does not do good works, then one is being disrespectful of God’s Eternal Mercy and the gift of salvation though Jesus. Therefore, one’s faith means nothing. In other words, according to Peter’s writings : Christian faith without works is dead.

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