Wood Chopped Down: The Information Superhighway and the Nonsense of Christian Missionary Belligerency

From the beginning of Orientalism, the Christian missionaries have been assuming that Islam is “headless” enough to be attacked and scrutinized with a ferocity that one can only conclude borders on fanaticism. These missionaries proved then that they do not have the brains to acknowledge their own headlessness. One such example is David Wood, a recent zealous recruit by the ever-intolerent Answering Islam, whose only amazing ability is his extreme belligerence, and what can only be described as fanatical intolerence, towards a faith different from his. This is a review of one such article.

Mr. Wood begins by saying:

    Muhammad’s empire of faith has managed to thrive in the modern world for one simple reason: Muslims have kept Muhammad?s dark past a secret. Indeed, they have gone beyond keeping it a secret; they have somehow convinced themselves (and many others) that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example, perhaps even the greatest moral example of all time. Perpetuating this fraud has been, in my opinion, the most stupendous deception in world history.

We are sure that it has been such “a very large secret” that the incidents “exposed” in Mr. Wood’s belligerent piece were actually recorded in some recent contemporary biographies of the Prophet Muhammad(P). Mr. Wood should consider reading the late Martin Ling’s “Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources“, M. H. Haykal’s “The Life of Muhammad” and another book, “The Sealed Nectar” and see whether these eminent writers have concealed even a fraction of the Prophet’s(P) life.

Yet Mr. Wood continue to persist in this mindless bigotry, and says:

    The difficulty here is that, no matter how loudly a Muslim shouts these objections, they have no power to overcome the historical fact that Muhammad was a robber and a murderer.

One should not throw stones at glass houses, and similarly one could say the following for the Judeo-Christian faith:

    The difficulty here is that, no matter how loudly a Jew/Christian shouts these objections, they have no power to overcome the historical fact that Moses was a robber and a murderer.

Mr. Wood has not proven anything apart from an assertion that, in his view, what the Prophet(P) did was “robbing and murdering”.

The following are some of the claims that he has charged against the Prophet(P). Do note the nature of the polemical trend employed by Mr Wood. They are neither “new” nor have they not been discussed or answered aeons ago. What we will do here is to reproduce some of the charges, and provide a link to a further discussion on the issue. This is to demonstrate to Mr. Wood and his missionary pals that their tired, old repetitions are not unfamiliar to us, and to send a message that we are not interested in reinventing the wheel and waste our time in responding.

The following are some of the claims that were made.

Claim #1: When Muhammad began receiving his revelations, his first impression was that he was possessed by demons

Verdict: Manipulation of Facts

This was discussed by Al-Nowaihi, who notes that:

It is important to realize that when that search culminated in his hearing the voice of Gabriel in Mount Hira, at the age of forty, he did not hasten to believe in his revelation or become convinced of it overnight. He passed through a period of considerable doubt and fear, terrified lest it be only the wicked trick and cruel jesting of Satan, and he needed the wholehearted support of his faithful wife Khadija to overcome his fears. I venture to suggest that this was an attestation of his integrity; a deliberate impostor bent upon deception would not have gone through those agonizing terrors. Furthermore, a careful reading of the early suras of the Qur’an shows that, even after he was convinced of the authenticity of his revelation, it was only with great reluctance that he accepted the awesome burden of his mission, and only after he was driven by an overpowering sense of the duty which he could not shirk.

(For more on the Christian missionary abuse of the Fatrah incident, see The Fatrah: Intermission of the Prophet Muhammad)

Claim #2: Muhammad supported his fledgling religion by robbing people

Verdict: Manipulation of Facts

(For more on the legislation and beginning of jihad, see The Legislation and the Beginning of Jihad)

Claim #3: Muhammad was often ruthless towards his adversaries

Verdict: Falsehood

On the contrary, the Prophet(P) was always gentle and treated his enemies kindly, and this is a fact recognised by the most virulent of his contemporary enemies.

(For more refutations to accusations of the so-called “brutality” of the Prophet(P), see What About The Killing of Ka’ab bin Al-Ashraf? and The Killing of Abu ‘Afak and Asma’ bint Marwan?)

Claim #4: Muhammad had far more wives than even his own revelations allowed

Verdict: Manipulation of Facts

The injunction on the limitation of wives does not apply to the Prophet’s(P) wives. As they had attained a high stature in the Muslim community of believers (Ummul Mukminin or “Mothers of the Believers), it would be nothing short of an injustice to deprive them of their status by divorcing them and hence condemn them to humiliation. For the Prophet’s(P) marriages, a separate law was given to him, namely that he may not marry any more women after this revelation was revealed.

(For more on the Prophet Muhammad’s wives, see Why Was The Prophet Polygamous?)

Claim #5: Muhammad consummated a marriage to a nine-year-old girl

Verdict: Manipulation of Facts

(For more on Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha, see The Young Marriage of Aishah)

Claim #6: Muhammad had a contemptible opinion of women

Verdict: Outright Falsehood

(For more on the Islamic view of women, see The Position of Women in Islam)

Claim #7: Muhammad is unique among prophets in that he is the only one to receive a revelation, proclaim it as part of God’s message to man, and later take it back, claiming that it was actually from Satan.

Verdict: Outright Falsehood

(For more on the Orientalist fantasy regarding this unauthentic tradition, see Those Are Their High-Flying Lies Indeed)

Hence from these mere selective “claims”, Mr Wood tries to conclude that:

    These are just some of the facts that Muslims have been keeping secret, but they are enough to make any reasonable person doubt the validity of Islam.

On the contrary, the allegations that were hurled and repeated ad nauseam by the missionary is nothing new. They have been discussed, debated, and refuted by Muslim and non-Muslim scholars time and time again. Mr. Wood is perhaps ignorant of the copious amount of material on these issues and who can blame him? Perhaps he has been living in a mono-culture all his life and has never come across a single Muslim on the street.

    The truth about Muhammad has been one of the world’s best-kept secrets. For centuries, it has been virtually impossible to raise objections about the character of Muhammad in Muslim countries, for anyone who raised such objections would (following the example set by Muhammad himself) immediately be killed.

And it was possible to raise issues of doubt about the character of Jesus(P) in the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades era, for example? Mr. Wood is trying to “pull wool” over his reader’s eyes, without a doubt.

Conclusions

We will not make secret of the fact that reviewing Mr. Wood’s article (not to mention his series of Christian belligerent nonsense) has been nothing but a most tiresome exercise. Mr. Wood tries to cast the illusion as though “criticism” of the Prophet(P) is something foreign or alien to the Muslim world. On the contrary, attacking Islam has been as old as the founding of Islam itself and “criticism” of the Prophet(P) as old as Orientalism itself.

We also demand evidence from Mr. Wood about his claim that “anyone who raised such objections would…immediately be killed”. What is the proof of his sweeping statement? In which countries are these people killed for their “criticism” and what is the nature of their so-called “criticism”?

Yet Mr. Wood continues with:

    In the end, Islam will fall, for the entire structure is built upon the belief that Muhammad was the greatest moral example in history, and this belief is demonstrably false.

Unfortunately for Mr. Wood, Islam does not rise or fall on a single individual. It is true that the Prophet Muhammad is held in the highest esteem. It is actually more true to say the following about Christianity:

    In the end, Christianity will fall, for the entire structure is built upon the belief that Jesus was the God-incarnate, and this belief is demonstrably false.

Indeed, countless individuals and groups have secretly wished for Islam’s downfall from past to present. However, we are not disturbed by the secret desires of Mr. Wood and his belligerent Christian missionary pals to see Islam’s destruction. There is no reason to believe that Mr. Wood and his pals will succeed where their more “knowledgeable” predecessors in the likes of Margoliuth, Muir, Zwemmer and Pfander had failed before.

And with that, we say that only God knows best! bismika-tombstone Wood Chopped Down: The Information Superhighway and the Nonsense of Christian Missionary Belligerency

36 Comments

  1. Why didn’t you quote any sources in your article? All you did was claim “David Wood is a liar”, you did nothing to refute David, who quoted Muslim sources to prove all of his claims (That Muhammad was a murderer and a thief, and was possessed by demons).

  2. That, my friend, is not my point. While I cannot speak directly for Mr. Wood, I am horribly ‘offended’ (how loosely do we use that term ;) ) that you would put all Christians under an umbrella like the author has done here. To clarify, you just said that if I wanted to be taken sincerely I would have to distance myself from Mr. Wood’s comments… excuse me if I’m wrong, but if I’m here to ‘defend’ Mr. Wood, why would I distance myself from him?

    As to Ashar’s comment, I would gladly agree. Christianity is different and against human nature. The very idea that God would love totally depraved creatures so much that He would take on their likeness, and die in one of the worst ways ever known to man to save them, is totally unique. That’s part of what sets Christianity apart from every single religion on earth, including Islam. As to your premise, that is absolutely out of context. The Bible also has laws for things like that. Try reading the Old Testament for starters.

    In Christ, Philip

  3. I am working with a christian missionary organization since last 10 years. I have never felt for a single moment that i should consider this eligion as a true religion. I am Muslim, but after joining this organization, thanks to Allah, that my beleif on Islam has become firm. Jesus says, if some one slaps on your one cheak, turn the other towards him to slap on that as well, if some one takes your coat from you, offer him the shirt too. I ask, if i go to any christians house and kidnape his doughter for sex, will he follow me with his other doughter to offer???????? never possible coz its against nature of man. So, christianity for me, is totally against nature

  4. Your whole premise, my dear Philip, is absurd. You made a comment here criticizing the author of this article for using certain words to refer to the missionary David Wood, when what you should have done, if you wanted to be taken seriously, was distance yourself from Wood’s comments. You will notice that in my initial response to you, I did not refer to Jesus_follower specifically (except when referring to the administrator’s comments) but to Christians who use insulting ways to preach to Muslims. You have refused to distance yourself from these missionaries (are they following the Biblical way of preaching??). That is enough for me to conclude that you are not interested in dialog and discussion.

  5. First of all, I used the arguement that you should be responsible for all muslim comments to show you how absurd it would be if I had to answer for Jesus follower. Apparently you didn’t catch that, so i reiterated that here. Secondly, if you pay attention to the Bible you will see that missionaries aren’t a secondary group inside Christianity, all Christians are called to be missionaries somewhere. So to try to single these people out under that guise is absurd.

    Sincerely, Philip Spencer

  6. Mr. Wood’s little article assumes many things. He not only insults the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but accuses Muslims of “hiding” his version of the “truth” about him. In other words, he believes Muslims are deceiving not only themselves but the whole world. Does this not register as an insult to 1.5 billion Muslims, in your mind? You do not distance yourself from these comments but you insist that Muslims apologize for the words used by some Muslim apologists, even though those words are directed at the lying missionaries, not Christians in general?

    You say that Jesus-Follower’s comments are his own, and therefore, you cannot be held responsible and neither can other Christians, yet you insist that I as well as other Muslims be held responsible for the comments made by other Muslims AND associate Islam with them as well. I think any reasonable person can see the hypocrisy in that.

    My experience has taught me that many people will project themselves as being respectful and willing to learn about Islam, but their beliefs and intentions are quite the opposite. Jesus-follower is an example. In the above posts, he projects himself as some innocent guy who just wants dialogue with Muslims, but if you are familiar with his previous posts, you would know that that is just a smoke-screen, that he is not interested in dialogue, but to attack and defame Islam and Muslims. Now, I am not accusing you of being deceptive in your intentions, but I found it quite odd that you are insistent on Muslims “watching their tongue” so to speak, yet you do not say the same about your fellow Christians. If you had done that, I guarantee you that I would not have responded with suspicion and criticism. I am not angry at you, just disappointed. As I have made clear in many of my posts, I do not defame or attack Christianity or Christians in general, but when it comes to individuals who resort to bigotry and lies, I have no sympathy or respect.

    Peace be upon you.

  7. You are side-stepping around my point. In the excerpt that is posted on this site, the only two terms he used were robber and murderer. He also puts out proof to support his argument, and while I don’t mind if you correct his argument and defend Muhammads hypothetical honor, you have used those two terms to open a flood gate of insults against Mr. Wood himself. What does that say about Islam? Does he call you a misguided, disillusioned, moron for believing in Islam? As to Jesus Follower’s comments, I thought we had already established that I cannot take responsibility for those. He will have to defend his own honor. I am asking you to debate with ME, not Jesus Follower. The fallacy behind that is clear. We can both point out people on both sides of the proverbial line, and say that they are ‘biased’ or overly aggressive in the terms they use when accusing individuals or suggesting things about them. But we would get nowhere. The more I debate with you, it seems like you get more aggressive in your name calling and accusations. What does that say about Islam? My bias is not what needs to be questioned here, its yours. After reading the debate between you and Jesus Follower and spending time talking to you, I begin to see that no matter the level of respect I maintain when talking to you, this might just degenerate into a one sided barrage of insults and little hacks and cuts like those displayed in your previous posts and the posts of the administrator. Again, what does that say about your religion? Are you assuming an air of superiority?

  8. Yeah, of course, your bias blinds you from condemning “Mr. Wood” for his offensive remarks against the blessed Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but you cry foul when a Muslim responds to such garbage by referring to that moron’s arguments as “Christian nonsense.” If you were not so biased, you would have condemned his ridiculous statements and distanced yourself from them, but alas, you failed to do that and have done your faith and your brethren who do not resort to such bigotry a great disservice.

    Concerning the Crusades and the Inquisition, if you are referring to my comment to Jesus-follower, perhaps you don’t realize that it was he who accused Islam of being responsible for the murders of many people, simply because the people who were responsible claimed to be Muslims. My response to this absurd statement was that people claiming to be Christians have done terrible things too, like the Crusades and Inquisition, and of course the Rwanda genocide. Read the whole statement before you make absurd allegations. I was not the one who accused Christianity of doing horrible things. It was your “brother” who resorted to such idiotic statements. And of course, in typical fashion, you failed to condemn that as well. Bravo!

  9. Please forgive me, but besides robber and murderer, I see no other names,good or bad, Mr. Wood uses for Muhammad. May I ask one more question, why do you always point to the Crusades and the Inquisition? Do you know the actual history behind the Crusades? Also, if we have to take responsibility for all of our factions, Catholic ‘extremists’ per say, then why don’t you have to take responsibility for muslim extremists? Couldn’t I just point back to 9/11 and all of the bombings everywhere and use that as a way to say that Islam is a violent religion?

  10. Oh please. Do we have to tell you that Muslims do not regard the New Testament as the authentic words of Jesus (pbuh)? According to Islam, Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. Period.

    Concerning your “brother”, you should know that this is not the only topic he posted on. He has posted elsewhere, and it was already clear from his rhetoric that he was a self-absorbed, nasty person. That was not “emotion and sheer disdain” lol.

    I should tell you that I have many Christian friends, so I do not regard Christians as “hate-mongers”, although there are many. What struck me as odd about your initial response was that you were pointing the finger at Muslims for using what you call “defamatory names” but you did not condemn the language used by the missionary which this article dealt with, especially since it is supposedly not in line with the way a Christian should act. My point is that you should condemn your brethren for using “defamatory names” regarding Islam and Muslims, before you criticize Muslims for responding to such trash.

  11. Forgive my absence. Are you telling me that Jesus did not believe in the Trinity as God’s true state? all over the New Testament, Jesus refers to God the Father and the Holy Spirit,and including him,all three different aspects of one God. Jesus also refers to Himself as “I Am’, the same name God the Father uses in the Old Testament. Also, in the adminstrator’s comment between posts 20 and 21, he refers to Jesus as “a half-naked roman criminal swinging from a cross.” I for one, consider this offensive,and while I am not going to slander Muslims, because Jesus himself has required that we love those who hate us, I do believe that any casual observer may find this argument a bit lopsided due to your adminstration’s and this website’s constant attempts to humiliate the real Faith (Christianity) and paint Believers (Christians) in general as hate-mongers. As for my assumed brother’s posts earlier, I cannot accept responsibility for those because I didn’t say that,and yes he should of rephrased those, but he obviously didn’t start it and was reacting out of emotion and sheer disdain. In Christ and with respect. [ I am not going to continue that childs game ;)]

  12. To P. Spencer,

    I have yet to see you condemn the hate speech of your Christian brethren. You have made two comments about the problems you have with some of the things the Muslims on this website have said, but have not made any comments about the things Christians have said.

    With regard to the Administrator’s comments to Jesus-follower (who is himself an incredibly hatefilled person), he was not slandering the Prophets, he was rejecting the trinity, something all Muslims do. Your comments seem to suggest that the Prophets Moses and Jesus believed in or mentioned the trinity as being God’s true state, when in reality, they did not.

    In Islam with great respect, but THAT is waining also ;-)

  13. “Go and Burn in Hell when you die. You filthy Trinitarian pagan worshipper of a naked man.” HATE SPEACH? Don’t Muslims themselves recognize the prophetic authority of Moses and Jesus? Why slander your own prophets?
    Again in Christ with great respect, but that is waining- P. Spencer

  14. To begin with I would like to say that you deem Christians “intolerant” and “beligerent,” yet you use terms such as “Christian nonsense” and other defamatory names. So haven’t you proved his point? You have smothered his argument in irrelevant attacks and slandered the man himself. If you are so tolerant, why have you shouted him down in such a way? I am very interested in these dialogues and will surely follow this one.
    In Christ and with great respect, P. Spencer

  15. Hello Sara,

    Muslims say “peace be upon him” to show respect to the prophets. You are right to say that they already have peace in Heaven. But we send wishes of that peace to them from ourselves. It shows our respect towards them.

  16. Islamispeace
    You seem very educated in matters concerning Christianity and Islam, I admire that. I just wanted to ask you something, why do you say “peace be upon him” after mentioning a prophets name? I ask this because I am not a muslim and I am really intrigued to know why, seeing as they should already be shrouded in peace as they are in heaven? I hope that you can help me understand this. You can email me the answer on tene10e@yahoo.co.uk

    Thank you

  17. Brother Admin, has J_follower’s post been deleted? Please post it so that our disillusioned Christian friend can be educated. Jazak Allah Khair.

    [Admin: His post will not be published because (1) it has exceeded the limit of characters that we allow for comments to be posted, (2) he abuses and insults Muslims at every juncture in his post, resorting to falsehood and deception which are a reflection of these worshippers of a half-naked Roman criminal swinging from a cross, (3) we are working on a refutation of the claims that he has aired, so there is no need to publish them when his lies will be exposed soon.]

  18. it looks like my response to you is not getting posted, but I will just e-mail you islamispeace

  19. “The answer is of course NO. the reason for that answer is that I simply don’t believe that GOD would order such thing. I also believe that Moses could have used GOD as a reason to execute his plans. He simply could have easily said that It’s GOD’s order to kill the babies where in fact GOD had never ordered such act. Again, this is the OLD testament. another point to make about this is the fact that you are calling GOD names, which I think is balsphemous. The GOD of the old testament is the same GOD that you pray for! isn’t it? it’s the GOD of the Old testament that all muslims agree is the one and only GOD. that’s why I said your argument is weak because you are basically bashing on your own GOD. Now, if you think that Allah is not the same GOD as the GOD of the Jews then you are an infidel yourself!!”

    Are you then saying that the Old Testament is wrong? I don’t know many Christians who would say that the Old Testament is wrong about certain things. Are you a liberal Christian? Are you also claiming that Moses (pbuh) was a liar? How can you say that when it is supposed to be your belief that the Old Testament, specifically the 5 books of Moses, were dictated by God to Moses who then diligently wrote it down?! In essence, by calling Moses a liar, you are also calling God a liar, since it is Christian doctrine that He dictated the Pentateuch to Moses! In the eyes of most Christians, especially devout Catholics and Evangelicals, you are the infidel! It is a fundamental belief in Christianity that the Old Testament is God’s unaltered, unadulterated, word. Any Christian who does not believe this is considered to be not Christian. Every copy of the Christian Bible, no matter what version, has two parts: the Old Testament and the New Testament. This is fact. If you say that the Old Testament is not entirely correct, which your response definitely suggests, then you are denying that the Christian Bible is the pure word of God. Surely God’s word would not have even a shred of falsehood in it, and yet you say that the stories of infanticide mentioned within the pages of the Old Testament are false, even though the stories appear Numbers, one of the 5 books of Moses, which were supposedly dictated to Moses by God.

    As for me, I have no problem with your claim that God never ordered such brutality, although I disagree that Moses (pbuh) would have lied. You see, J_follower, I believe that while God did send down the Torah and the Psalms, I believe that they have been corrupted by human hands. Your answer seems to suggest this as well. Is that what you are claiming? Has the Old Testament been corrupted by human hands? Also, I do not think that I am blaspheming, because I do not believe that God ordered the murder of infants! Therefore, I don’t think that the verse mentioning the slaughter of innocent babies is God’s word, and that means that I am not blaspheming against God! I think your assumption is out of place here. It is supposed to be your belief that the Old Testament is the unaltered word of God, and hence everything that is in it is from God, including the merciless infanticide. Finally, when I initially asked you why “God” (not really God, because those verses are not from Him), did such a thing, you did not say “He didn’t.” You said “I don’t know!” Why did you change your position? First, you were neutral, admitting that you had no idea why God ordered infants to be put to the sword (in effect admitting that it was done), but now you say that he did not give such an order. Instead, you suggest that Moses (pbuh) could have simply lied, which also means that God lied. To back up this claim, you offer no evidence. Why the sudden 180-degree turn?

    “Obviously I am making you angry by asking honest questions, but For your information, First I am an educated man and I was born in an islamic dominated country in the middle east. I finished my high school education in the middle east, and now I live in USA, so I definitely know what I am talking about when it comes to islamic history (we had islamic history classes for like 10 years). I sat numerous times in the Islamic religion classes and I probably know about Islam as much as I know about the Bible, and Let me tell you that I am not impressed at all with it! I probably know islamic history more than christian history itself because I lived my first 17 years in the middle east studying islamic history for most of that time in school!”

    On the contrary, you are not making me angry. You are making me laugh, because you try to pass yourself off as someone who has thoroughly studied Islamic scripture and understood it, when in reality, it is fairly obvious that you have not. I will prove this; continue reading, please.

    “Again with your blasphemy, you talk about the GOD of the OT like it is not your GOD!! you know as I know that muslims supposely pray and believe for the same GOD the Jews and Christians believe in. Anyway, I answered this point above, so there is no need to stress it. The reason why I posted my questions to you in response to your question is that First,I truely did not hear of that story as I told you that I always studied the NT as a christian and never the old testament.”

    Again, I don’t think I am blaspheming because I believe that the Old Testament as it exists today is not God’s unaltered message. If anyone is blaspheming, it is you because you, as a Christian, must accept EVERY word of not only the New Testament but also the Old Testament, unless you are a liberal Christian. But then again, liberal Christians have no problem with saying that the New Testament also has many problems.

    “To be honest with you, sometimes I come to the belief that muslims probably tried so hard to bash on the new testament but could not really find anything wrong with it (except of course that Jesus is GOD), so they figured they would bash on the OT instead.”

    Actually, there are many problems with the New Testament as well. You seem to be of the naive opinion that “problems” only exist in the form of violent verses, such as the verses mentioning infanticide. Of course, this is not true. The New Testament has logical problems, archaeological problems, contradiction problems, etc. etc. If you would like, I can provide you with some examples, and there are quite a few of them.

    “I already told you why the OT is there, there is no need to mention my answer again. there is a reason why they call it the OLD testament.”

    All I have read so far is that the story of infanticide which the Old Testament talks about is false. That means the Old Testament is false. Is that your answer?

    “The NT is what christianity is based upon. Second, the story that Allah would allow the prophet to marry any women he wants and allow him an infinite number of slaves is completely out-of-hand if you ask me. To a neutral person who hears the story of a man, who claims prophecy, to have slave women that he could sleep with anytime he desired is completely unacceptable for a prophet of GOD. What makes you think I shouldn’t believe that it was the prophet’s lust for women and abnormal abuse of his power and word over people that drove him to allow himself to marry all these women and allow himself women slaves (also alowing muslims slave captives as well). Of course the muslims were probably furious with the idea that a prophet would do that, so he invented a verse that allows him to do it. Now that sounds a lot more logical than your explanation, and that’s what I truely believe. Muhammad does not need a verse from GOD to allow him to marry girls for alliances, he simply could have done it without a verse, but the muslim crowd probably were asking too many suspicious questions so he came with a verse to justify it! you mention this fact in what you said here”

    Here we go again. Your foolish ignorance has done you in once more. Any student of history knows that in the pre-Islamic days, there was no limit to how many women a man could marry. Your foolish assumptions, besides not being backed up by evidence, do not prove anything, only your own lack of knowledge.

    In a society where there were no limits on marriage, and a man could marry as many women as he wanted (hundreds even), it was a revolutionary concept that a man could marry only up to 4 wives, provided that he care for and love each wife equally. If he could not do that, then he could marry only one. This idea was unheard of in the pre-Islamic days. Furthermore, Muhammad (pbuh) was a married man before he became a Prophet. He was married to one woman, and that was Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her). He remained married only to her until her death, and all of his children, except for one, were from his marriage to her. In a society where he could have married as many women as he wanted, he remained with one. Think about this. In the prime of his youth, where one would except a person to be sexually active, Muhammad (pbuh) had only one wife. Why would he wait for old age to take more wives when he could have simply done so before, even before he became a Prophet? He certainly did not need a verse to allow him to marry more women, because that was already the norm in Arabia! The purpose of the verse is explained by Ibn Kathir in the excerpt I gave you before. It was meant to draw a line in a society where there was no line. It was meant to put limits on and to rebuild the institution of marriage , which was in shambles because of the practices of, not only the pagan arabs, but the Christians and Jews as well.

    To further demolish your absurd logic, here is a list of Muhammad’s wives. Notice that many of them proposed to him and some were quite old, as old as 65 years. Khadija, his first wife, was 40 years old when she proposed to Muhammad (pbuh), who was at the time a 25 year old merchant working for her:

    http://anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm

    Now, you obviously are of the view that the Chrisitian Bible prohibits polygamy. I have heard this before and have never seen any Biblical evidence that this is so. Do us all a favor and “educate” us on the Bible’s views regarding polygamy. Does it really say explicitly that a man can marry only one wife? If this is so, why did the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, not ever expressly forbid the practice, which was also common among Catholics? Good luck with this one!

    “I was able to get around to read the links you provided, and I can’t tell you how much I loved those two links specially the second one. I want to thank you because it proves my point even further. Here is a mulsim woman that reads the Quran and can’t find an answer to her question. her question was “what do I get in Heavon as opposed to the Man”. the answers that were provided basically said nothing. it only said that women will enter heavon, and to me that is not an answer, the sheikh stated the obvious, I mean I would hope that after all women have done to humanity they would at least have a chance to enter heavon!. the woman was wondering why would GOD allow polygmy on earth and then allow it in heavon. She obviously hates polygmy and can’t stand the idea of it. I don’t believe she got her answer. I believe you lost her as a muslimah. Her questions were right on the spot, and the answers were anything but impressive (oh, women will in fact enter heavon..but they still get to watch their husbands practice polygmy). on the contrary, christianity does not allow polygmy on earth, and no marriage in paradise which is yet another point where christianity is better. So Basically, you might think you actually have answers to everything, but if non of these answers make sense to the human being, then it’s not an answer.”

    Well, first, I would like to see indisputable evidence that Christianity does not allow polygamy. I hear Christians say that, but they never actually show where it says that. The usual verses they bring are from the Gospel of Matthew, but those specific verses talk about divorce, not polygamy. So, where exactly does it say that polygamy is not allowed? Apparently, it was allowed for the Israelites. Oh, but you are going to claim that the Old Testament is wrong, right?

    As for the links I provided, I feel they efficiently answered the question. However, you, in your blind bias, will not accept anything because your mind is already made up. You are lost in your satanic bias. The links said it clearly that women who do good will enter Paradise and will enjoy it along with their husbands. They will not have the ability to have sex with other men, because in Heaven, they will still be married to their husbands. It would not make sense to allow the women to have sex with other men, besides their husbands. Another important point to mention is that it is not incumbent upon the men to have as many virgins as they want. Some men may not want to have anyone other than their wives. It is just like in this world. Some men would rather not marry 4 wives. It is not incumbent upon them to do so. The same applies to Heaven.

    “another good question would even be, why would GOD have virgins in heavon anyway! Heavon is not materialistic nor it is a place where you can get virgins. Jesus was asked about this, and he said that in Heavon there is no marraige and no materials. Believers will be able to see their GOD again, and that should be good enough for them after living without the ability to see their lord (think about it, all people nowadays have not seen GOD).”

    Really? The Christian heaven is not materialistic? Then I suppose Jesus was lying when he promised his disciples that in heaven, there are mansions, and that they will have the honor of living in those extragavant mansions? It says this clearly in John 14:2-3. Now don’t try to deny it. Don’t make yourself look even more foolish. The Christian heaven is materialistic.

    “Wine does not make you intoxicated unless you abuse it! Abusing anything at all will make you sick anyway. for example if you over eat cactus you will have digestion problems..etc(there are many examples of over abusing any drink or food that will make you sick) there is no reason to not allow drinking wine if you tell the people not to abuse it. on the other hand the Bible allows drinking but in moderation. some christians even choose not to drink at all, but that’s their choice.”

    The wine of Heaven will not need to be drunk in “moderation.” A person could drink as much as he/she wants and will not be intoxicated, because in Heaven, there will be no such thing, just as there will be no crime, anger, hatred, disease, or death. If the Bible allows alcohol even in moderation, it offers no warning to pregnant women to not drink! It is a medical fact that there is no safe or “moderate” amount of alcohol when a woman is pregnant. The alcohol causes severe mental retardation in fetuses, not to mention addiction in many when they are born. Here is a link which explains FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome):

    http://familydoctor.org/068.xml

    A notable excerpt: “Will it hurt my baby even if I don’t drink every day?

    Yes. Even small amounts of alcohol can be harmful. Because no amount of alcohol can be considered safe, pregnant women should avoid all alcohol during the entire pregnancy.”

    Does the Bible come with a warning that pregnant women should not drink? Is there something along the lines of a “Surgeon General’s Warning.” May be something like “Jesus’ Warning: Consuming alcohol during pregnancy may cause birth defects?” I think not.

    “Is christianity pro-life? yes it is. you see christians all the time in this country (USA)denouncing abortion and stem cell research. on the other hand, islam is the one that is not pro-life as we see Mothers ,stomping over the love for their children, send them to be Martyrs and die for the sake of Allah. Islam is pro-life? that’s a joke right?! I am not an expert on this topic but it’s obvious. If Islam is pro-life it would not promote virgins and wine to encourage humans to kill themselves to go to heavon. Osama bin Laden said it out loud “The US values Life, we (muslims) value death””

    You are damn right that you are not an expert. You are just as ignorant and bigoted in your beliefs than most Christians I have come across. It is always funny when people like you admit they are not “experts,” and yet they still somehow feel that they have figured everything out and that they know more about Islam than Muslims do, even though they have never actually studied Islam in detail! How hilarious! I challenge you to back up your slanderous claim that Islam “encourages humans to kill themselves to go to heaven.” Show me your evidence or stop spewing your lies.

    “okay, the rest of questions I asked were asked to show a point that I don’t believe in anymore. I am sorry I got carried away when I heard the story you presented and rushed to come up with an answer, and I should have not done that. Anyway, I answered the point you made about Moses. The Bible does provide answers to the questions I asked.”

    No, you did not answer the question. All you did was say what you thought was a possibility. You provided no evidence. In addition, by saying that you do not agree with the Old Testament that God ordered infanticide, you are in turn denying the Old Testament’s divine roots, which is a cornerstone of Chrisitian belief.

    “Notice that I have not quoted the Quran when I talked about the birth of Jesus. I have a muslim friend, who converted to christianity, that told me this fact. he is also from the middle east. he told me that the Quran in arabic says that the holy spirit was blown into marry, which he thought totally proves father, son, and holy spirit concept. That proves that Jesus is not human therefore he is GOD.”

    You claimed that the Quran says that Jesus was divine. You were proven wrong. As for your friend, he is clearly wrong in saying that it was the Holy Spirit, which the Quran says was Gabriel and not the Spirit of God, that was blown into Mary. On the contrary, it is written that the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) blew the soul of Jesus into Mary, as God had commanded.

    “I couldn’t agree more with you on this point. sure not everything that looks like a miracle is a miracle, but when you have a man with no vision, goes to church to pray, gets up the next day completely cured, and the doctor is completely amazed because he knows the man was blind, I sure believe that this is a christian miracle. Plus we’re only talking here about one miracle. there are a lot more miracles. The National Geographic channel had a show on christian miracles few months ago. They said that they found 67 confirmed miracles right at the end of the show.”

    It does not go unnoticed that you completely avoided talking about the so-called miracles that occurred in India in the 1990s. There is even a Hindu temple in Toronto where it is claimed that many people have been healed by the power of “goddess Sridurka.” Are these miracles or something else altogether? Should we think like you and start worshipping Hindu idols? Even the Romans claimed miracles as being signs of the divine power of their gods. The pagan Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus wrote about an alleged miracle performed at the hands of the Emperor Vespasian. This “miracle” is mentioned in Tacitus’ 2nd century work “The Histories.” According to Tacitus, Vespasian miraculously healed two men, and that this “miracle” was witnessed by many people, and that it was made possible by the intervention of the pagan god Serapis. Should we take this as proof that Serapis is a true god? I certainly will not. The so-called Christian miracles certainly are not proof to me that Christianity is the true religion or that Jesus is God either.

    “Now, I know that Muhammad did not perform any miracles. That’s a lie. he was asked to perform a miracle to prove himself, but his answer was that the Quran was his miracle. To a man like me who understands arabic very well, I can tell you that the Quran might be a good piece of literature, but it’s no miracle. it is just a book, and there have been other arabic writings that are way better than the Quran. for example, poets like Ibn-Jareer and Farazdak have awesome arabic poetry. the only problem is that no one in the arabic world dares to challenge the quran.”

    A lie, is it? Really? Here is a list of his miracles, for your reading pleasure:

    http://thetruereligion.org/mod.....icleid=106

    So, who is lying here? Me or you? Or is it that you are not a liar, just abhorrenlty ignorant of Islam? I think it is the latter in this case. What do you think?

    “When I said that we are not so different, I was trying to be nice and respectful. I am trying to conduct a good conversation with you. I have many muslim friends that I have great respect for. I love muslims, I love all human beings, I respect all religions and all beliefs. I am a christian, and this is what christianity is. that’s what Jesus taught us. he taught us to love with no restrictions. No where in the new Testament it tells christians to fight the unbelievers and kill them. NO where in the NT you find Martyrs getting virgins, boys, and wine in heavon for killing innocent people. That’s the problem with Islam. this is what I am fighting.”

    If you want to be nice and respectful, here is a little tip: try not to spew your lies about Islam. I challenge you once again to show indisputable evidence from the Quran or Hadiths which say that Muslims go to Heaven “for killing people.” You are fighting the truth, not evil. The evil is coming from you, because you are trying to entinguish the light of Islam with your satanic lies. Of course, you will never succeed, inshaAllah!

    “Sex with captive women and slave women is permitted not only for the prophet but also for muslims Quran…23:1-6 this fact, in my opinion, is a proof (one of many) that the Quran can’t be the word of GOD. Just ask yourself my fellow muslim: What GOD is this GOD that is going to allow such an unethical act!! It’s in the Quran and you can’t deny it. I want you to answer this. I answered you on your point, so please tell me why would GOD allmighty all-powerful all-forgiving and loving allow muslims to have sex with their captives without marriage and without even saying “if they wanted” at least.”

    Firstly, you have not answered my question. You actually changed your answer from before. I guess you realized that a book which you are supposed to believe is the unaltered word of God is actually not, you were forced to change your position from neutrality to complete denial.

    The issue of concubines has been a popular target of non-Muslim attacks on Islam, especially pathetic Christians like you. Concubines are taken during times of war only and if they are impregnated, they are automatically free, as are their offspring. In the Old Testament, concubines were taken by the most devout men and nothing is written which would suggest that God was unhappy with their actions. But again, the Old Testament is wrong, even though God is the one who is supposed to have inspired or dictated it, or so you are supposed to believe.

    “Why does the Quran allow the man to beat his wife? why Women in Islam cannot divorce, and have no choice in that decision at all. the man does not even have to go to Sheikh/Mosque/court to divorce a woman. he can simply say “you are divorced”, and to make matters even worse, the man is allowed to bring the woman back as long as he did not say “you are divorced” three times. if he says it three times, then the woman has to sleep with somebody else before she comes back to him. this is the truth and is practiced in all Islamic countries, and I think is very shameful.”

    I am so sick and tired of your lies. Islam gives women the right to divorce, just as it gives them the right to inheritance and kind treatment from their husbands. In truth, it is Christianity which prohibits divorce altogether, which means that neither the husband or the wife can separate. If that means that a woman has to stay with an abusive husband, then so be it. Islam, on the other hand, is a practical religion which permits divorce, but considers it a great dishonor. But, women do have divorce rights (Sura An-Nisa: 128). Read this article to educate yourself and to free yourself from your own lies:

    http://twf.org/Library/WomenICJ.html#divorce

    As for beating wives, it is allowed only as a last resort against a rebellious wife, if other means fail. Regarding the manner of beating, it is to be light. Ibn Kathir’s commentary on the part of Sura An-Nisa:34 concerning beating one’s wife says the following:
    “beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said:
    (Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.”

    “by the way, your nick name islamispeace. Is Islam really a peacful religion?”

    It is a great name, isn’t it? I chose it for a reason. I just love it when people ask me “islamispeace, is Islam really peaceful?” Trust me when I say this: you are not the first one to ask me this question. In fact, just a few months ago, a Christian named “Mariyyah” asked me this same question on this same site. She has yet to respond to my last response to her. Anyway, I chose the name because it is relevant to the times and because it sticks out. It encourages non-Muslims to start asking questions. They ask me “if Islam is so peaceful, then why does the Quran say such and such?” They assume that I am just some poor Muslim that has never read the Quran, and who just believes that Islam is true because I have been told that by my parents or imams and that I dare not ask questions out of fear of being killed. How wrong they are!

    I ask them to bring forth any verses which, in their confused minds, are somehow “unjust” or “violent.” Those poor fools then bring forth mangled verses with parts missing in a desperate effort to not look stupid, but they do. They look stupid when they are shown that the verses they quoted are quoted out of context or only in parts, with other vital parts missing. Do they do it on purpose? I think some of them do, but most of them are just ignorant. They don’t know any better because they have been led to believe certain things by their priests and ministers. I doubt that many of them have much knowledge on their own religion, let alone Islam. You are one of them, aren’t you? You obviously have never read the entire Christian Bible, since you admitted that you had never heard of the Old Testament stories of infanticide before.

    “we see live contrary examples every day that proves Islam is not a peacful religion. here are few facts: More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. Muslims claim that their religion is Hijacked by the terrorists, but I am a guy who does not think so. the problem is within the Quran itself. NO Human on this planet kills others then raises his holy book to justify his killing except a muslim. Also, another fact that proves that Islam is not peaceful is the Converts to the religion itself. why is it that so many Western Converts to Islam flip from being a normal human being to be an extremist. All of a sudden Arabic is the holiest language on the planet, America and the Jews are the enemy so they want to slaughter as many of them as possible including women and children, and they want to conquer their land and take their women captive. why is that trend only unique to Islam? I have never seen or heard of a christian Convert that does any of these shameful actions. You can talk about how Islam is peacful all day long, but the facts, reality and the Quran, with no doubt, will prove you wrong.”

    So let me get this straight. Essentially, you are arguing that since people claiming to be Muslims have killed more people than people claiming to be Christians (and that is in recent times), that means that Islam is inherently evil and violent. Is this correct? You don’t deny that Christians have done evil things, and you even gave some examples like the Spanish Inquisition. You obviously do not see how insanely absurd and utterly idiotic this argument is. But I will play this game of yours, just to humor you. Let me show you a few examples, just from the 20th century, where Chrisitians have committed some of the worst crimes in human history, both in terms of the horrific nature of these crimes and the number of people who were either killed, wounded or generally negatively affected. These are events which you have overlooked, perhaps intentionally. The most obvious one that comes to mind is the Holocaust. The mass murderers were predominately Christians, were they not? How many people died in the Holocaust? Thirteen million, six million of which were Jews. Another incident of mass murder in which Christians were the main culprits was the ethnic cleansing which took place in Bosnia and Kosovo. Hundreds of thousands were killed, including 8,000 Muslims at Srebrenica alone. Yet another episode of mass murder in which Christians took an active role was the Rwandan genocide, in which 800,000 people were killed. Catholic clergy and nuns, as well many Protestant churches have been implicated in aiding the murderers. This startling revelation has led many people in this predominately Roman Catholic country to turn to Islam, because they could not find it within themselves to forgive and forget the role of the Catholic church in the inhumanity which shook Rwanda in the 1990s. Before the genocide, Islam accounted for around 4% of the population. Now, it accounts for 14%. Muslims are hailed as heroes in Rwanda, because so many of them risked their lives to save people, regardless of their ethnicity.

    We have only seen three instances, and just in the 20th century, where Christians engaged in barbaric behavior and played a role in the deaths of millions of people. If one studies the whole history, one finds even more gruesome examples of Christian barbarism. Sorry, J_follower, but your absurd logic fails yet again.

    “islamispeace, I am glad we are talking about this. it’s good to debate things as it opens your mind to things you probably never looked at before. thanks”

    You obviously have not looked at Islam without your Christian bias. It is kind of hard, J_follower, to “open your mind to things you…never looked at before” if you don’t have an open mind, don’t you think? ;-)

  20. Islamispeace,

    Nice to hear from you too.

    you said,”So let me ask you now: Do you accept the fact that Jesus, who is god to you, was the one who ordered Moses to kill infants? A simple yes or no answer would be sufficient”

    The answer is of course NO. the reason for that answer is that I simply don’t believe that GOD would order such thing. I also believe that Moses could have used GOD as a reason to execute his plans. He simply could have easily said that It’s GOD’s order to kill the babies where in fact GOD had never ordered such act. Again, this is the OLD testament. another point to make about this is the fact that you are calling GOD names, which I think is balsphemous. The GOD of the old testament is the same GOD that you pray for! isn’t it? it’s the GOD of the Old testament that all muslims agree is the one and only GOD. that’s why I said your argument is weak because you are basically bashing on your own GOD. Now, if you think that Allah is not the same GOD as the GOD of the Jews then you are an infidel yourself!!

    you said,”As for the rest of your entry, I would advise you to not quote from the Quran if you have no understanding of Islamic history or have any common sense. For instance, you asked why God allowed Muhammad (pbuh) to marry more any woman he desired.”

    Obviously I am making you angry by asking honest questions, but For your information, First I am an educated man and I was born in an islamic dominated country in the middle east. I finished my high school education in the middle east, and now I live in USA, so I definitely know what I am talking about when it comes to islamic history (we had islamic history classes for like 10 years). I sat numerous times in the Islamic religion classes and I probably know about Islam as much as I know about the Bible, and Let me tell you that I am not impressed at all with it! I probably know islamic history more than christian history itself because I lived my first 17 years in the middle east studying islamic history for most of that time in school!

    you said,”First, the fact that you posed this question in response to my query of why the Christian god ordered the murder of infants is fallacious. You admit that you do not know why infants are slaughtered at the order of your god. However, Muslims understand exactly why God allowed not just Muhammad (pbuh), but all Muslim men to marry more than one wife. For Muhammad (pbuh), the limit was not set at four, as it was for the believing men.”

    Again with your blasphemy, you talk about the GOD of the OT like it is not your GOD!! you know as I know that muslims supposely pray and believe for the same GOD the Jews and Christians believe in. Anyway, I answered this point above, so there is no need to stress it. The reason why I posted my questions to you in response to your question is that First,I truely did not hear of that story as I told you that I always studied the NT as a christian and never the old testament. To be honest with you, sometimes I come to the belief that muslims probably tried so hard to bash on the new testament but could not really find anything wrong with it (except of course that Jesus is GOD), so they figured they would bash on the OT instead. I already told you why the OT is there, there is no need to mention my answer again. there is a reason why they call it the OLD testament. The NT is what christianity is based upon. Second, the story that Allah would allow the prophet to marry any women he wants and allow him an infinite number of slaves is completely out-of-hand if you ask me. To a neutral person who hears the story of a man, who claims prophecy, to have slave women that he could sleep with anytime he desired is completely unacceptable for a prophet of GOD. What makes you think I shouldn’t believe that it was the prophet’s lust for women and abnormal abuse of his power and word over people that drove him to allow himself to marry all these women and allow himself women slaves (also alowing muslims slave captives as well). Of course the muslims were probably furious with the idea that a prophet would do that, so he invented a verse that allows him to do it. Now that sounds a lot more logical than your explanation, and that’s what I truely believe. Muhammad does not need a verse from GOD to allow him to marry girls for alliances, he simply could have done it without a verse, but the muslim crowd probably were asking too many suspicious questions so he came with a verse to justify it! you mention this fact in what you said here

    “(those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses whom Allah has given to you,) means, `the slave-girls whom you took from the war booty are also permitted to you.’ He owned Safiyyah and Juwayriyah, then he manumitted them and married them, and he owned Rayhanah bint Sham`un An-Nadariyyah and Mariyah Al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibrahim, upon him be peace; they were both among the prisoners, may Allah be pleased with them”

    I asked you,“Why would GOD give the man 72 virgins in heavon and not the woman?”

    I was able to get around to read the links you provided, and I can’t tell you how much I loved those two links specially the second one. I want to thank you because it proves my point even further. Here is a mulsim woman that reads the Quran and can’t find an answer to her question. her question was “what do I get in Heavon as opposed to the Man”. the answers that were provided basically said nothing. it only said that women will enter heavon, and to me that is not an answer, the sheikh stated the obvious, I mean I would hope that after all women have done to humanity they would at least have a chance to enter heavon!. the woman was wondering why would GOD allow polygmy on earth and then allow it in heavon. She obviously hates polygmy and can’t stand the idea of it. I don’t believe she got her answer. I believe you lost her as a muslimah. Her questions were right on the spot, and the answers were anything but impressive (oh, women will in fact enter heavon..but they still get to watch their husbands practice polygmy). on the contrary, christianity does not allow polygmy on earth, and no marriage in paradise which is yet another point where christianity is better. So Basically, you might think you actually have answers to everything, but if non of these answers make sense to the human being, then it’s not an answer.

    another good question would even be, why would GOD have virgins in heavon anyway! Heavon is not materialistic nor it is a place where you can get virgins. Jesus was asked about this, and he said that in Heavon there is no marraige and no materials. Believers will be able to see their GOD again, and that should be good enough for them after living without the ability to see their lord (think about it, all people nowadays have not seen GOD). Compare that to the Quran where it

    pictures Heavon like a sex-house basically (virgins, Wine, …etc, and the women get non of it) the idea of having virgins and wine in heavon is not appealing. Christianity portrays Heavon in a much better sense.

    you said,”the wine of Heaven will not cause intoxication. Surah al-Waqia:18-19 explains”

    Wine does not make you intoxicated unless you abuse it! Abusing anything at all will make you sick anyway. for example if you over eat cactus you will have digestion problems..etc(there are many examples of over abusing any drink or food that will make you sick) there is no reason to not allow drinking wine if you tell the people not to abuse it. on the other hand the Bible allows drinking but in moderation. some christians even choose not to drink at all, but that’s their choice.

    “I wonder if you have the answer to this question: Is your god truly pro-life? You may not know why your god does the things he does, but we sure do.”

    Is christianity pro-life? yes it is. you see christians all the time in this country (USA)denouncing abortion and stem cell research. on the other hand, islam is the one that is not pro-life as we see Mothers ,stomping over the love for their children, send them to be Martyrs and die for the sake of Allah. Islam is pro-life? that’s a joke right?! I am not an expert on this topic but it’s obvious. If Islam is pro-life it would not promote virgins and wine to encourage humans to kill themselves to go to heavon. Osama bin Laden said it out loud “The US values Life, we (muslims) value death”

    okay, the rest of questions I asked were asked to show a point that I don’t believe in anymore. I am sorry I got carried away when I heard the story you presented and rushed to come up with an answer, and I should have not done that. Anyway, I answered the point you made about Moses. The Bible does provide answers to the questions I asked.

    “So, the moral of the story is don’t try to misquote the Quran to fit your own beliefs. The Quran is the pure word of God and separates the truth from falsehood. Jesus was not divine. He was a man who worshipped God. That is it.”

    Notice that I have not quoted the Quran when I talked about the birth of Jesus. I have a muslim friend, who converted to christianity, that told me this fact. he is also from the middle east. he told me that the Quran in arabic says that the holy spirit was blown into marry, which he thought totally proves father, son, and holy spirit concept. That proves that Jesus is not human therefore he is GOD.

    “I believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all the other prophets performed miracles. They were a sign of their divine missions. But, not everything which seems like a miracle is a miracle.”

    I couldn’t agree more with you on this point. sure not everything that looks like a miracle is a miracle, but when you have a man with no vision, goes to church to pray, gets up the next day completely cured, and the doctor is completely amazed because he knows the man was blind, I sure believe that this is a christian miracle. Plus we’re only talking here about one miracle. there are a lot more miracles. The National Geographic channel had a show on christian miracles few months ago. They said that they found 67 confirmed miracles right at the end of the show.

    Now, I know that Muhammad did not perform any miracles. That’s a lie. he was asked to perform a miracle to prove himself, but his answer was that the Quran was his miracle. To a man like me who understands arabic very well, I can tell you that the Quran might be a good piece of literature, but it’s no miracle. it is just a book, and there have been other arabic writings that are way better than the Quran. for example, poets like Ibn-Jareer and Farazdak have awesome arabic poetry. the only problem is that no one in the arabic world dares to challenge the quran.

    When I said that we are not so different, I was trying to be nice and respectful. I am trying to conduct a good conversation with you. I have many muslim friends that I have great respect for. I love muslims, I love all human beings, I respect all religions and all beliefs. I am a christian, and this is what christianity is. that’s what Jesus taught us. he taught us to love with no restrictions. No where in the new Testament it tells christians to fight the unbelievers and kill them. NO where in the NT you find Martyrs getting virgins, boys, and wine in heavon for killing innocent people. That’s the problem with Islam. this is what I am fighting. I don’t care if you pray for a rock, but don’t hit me with it. As long as you don’t impose your religion on people, I don’t have a problem with that. Let me tell you something, when I lived in the middle east for 17 years and heard muslims say that it’s okay to force an Israeli woman into sex during war because “she is an enemy”, I never looked at it so mysteriously, but when I came to the united states and thought about it, I could not believe that a religion that claims to be from GOD, and a prophet that should be a great example for his followers would allow such a horrible thing. Sex with captive women and slave women is permitted not only for the prophet but also for muslims Quran…23:1-6 this fact, in my opinion, is a proof (one of many) that the Quran can’t be the word of GOD. Just ask yourself my fellow muslim: What GOD is this GOD that is going to allow such an unethical act!! It’s in the Quran and you can’t deny it. I want you to answer this. I answered you on your point, so please tell me why would GOD allmighty all-powerful all-forgiving and loving allow muslims to have sex with their captives without marriage and without even saying “if they wanted” at least. Why does the Quran allow the man to beat his wife? why Women in Islam cannot divorce, and have no choice in that decision at all. the man does not even have to go to Sheikh/Mosque/court to divorce a woman. he can simply say “you are divorced”, and to make matters even worse, the man is allowed to bring the woman back as long as he did not say “you are divorced” three times. if he says it three times, then the woman has to sleep with somebody else before she comes back to him. this is the truth and is practiced in all Islamic countries, and I think is very shameful.

    by the way, your nick name islamispeace. Is Islam really a peacful religion? we see live contrary examples every day that proves Islam is not a peacful religion. here are few facts: More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. Muslims claim that their religion is Hijacked by the terrorists, but I am a guy who does not think so. the problem is within the Quran itself. NO Human on this planet kills others then raises his holy book to justify his killing except a muslim. Also, another fact that proves that Islam is not peaceful is the Converts to the religion itself. why is it that so many Western Converts to Islam flip from being a normal human being to be an extremist. All of a sudden Arabic is the holiest language on the planet, America and the Jews are the enemy so they want to slaughter as many of them as possible including women and children, and they want to conquer their land and take their women captive. why is that trend only unique to Islam? I have never seen or heard of a christian Convert that does any of these shameful actions. You can talk about how Islam is peacful all day long, but the facts, reality and the Quran, with no doubt, will prove you wrong.

    islamispeace, I am glad we are talking about this. it’s good to debate things as it opens your mind to things you probably never looked at before. thanks

  21. Hi Jesus-follower,

    My email is pak_doc1203@yahoo.com. Feel free to contact me. I have had email conversations with Christians before. In fact, I am routinely conversing with a friend from Canada who is Christian.

  22. I will get back to you islamispeace, I don’t know if the administrator will let me post as he deleted some of other posts although I don’t think that I am being non-fair or disrespectful to muslims, but I will get back to you. if you could provide me with your e-mail, we could have a much better conversation. thanks

  23. Jesus_follower,

    Nice to hear from you.

    “Your argument is very weak as you are asking me why did GOD order something!! the answer is: I don’t know!.”

    In your previous entry, you said “who cares!” with regard to the Bible stories of infanticide. You also added that, as a Christian, you follow Jesus. OK, good. So let me ask you now: Do you accept the fact that Jesus, who is god to you, was the one who ordered Moses to kill infants? A simple yes or no answer would be sufficient.

    As for the rest of your entry, I would advise you to not quote from the Quran if you have no understanding of Islamic history or have any common sense. For instance, you asked why God allowed Muhammad (pbuh) to marry more any woman he desired. First, the fact that you posed this question in response to my query of why the Christian god ordered the murder of infants is fallacious. You admit that you do not know why infants are slaughtered at the order of your god. However, Muslims understand exactly why God allowed not just Muhammad (pbuh), but all Muslim men to marry more than one wife. For Muhammad (pbuh), the limit was not set at four, as it was for the believing men. By the way, polygamy is prominent in the Bible as well, and as far as I know, no verse exists in the New Testament which prohibits polygamy. So why did God allow Muhammad (pbuh) to marry more than one wife, you ask? First, it is important to note that verse 52 of the same sura you quoted says the following:

    “It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.”

    Therefore, he could not marry “any woman he desired.” Make sure to read all relevant verses before coming to a conclusion.

    Second, common sense tells us that as a statesman, Muhammad (pbuh) had to be concerned about political alliances and who his friends and enemies were. What better way was there to forge alliances than by marrying women from different tribes or nations? That is one of the reasons why he was permitted to marry more women. But in case you are not pleased by this answer, consider the words of Ibn Kathir regarding the verse you mentioned:

    “Allah says, addressing His Prophet that He has made lawful for him of women his wives to whom he has given the dowery, which is what is meant by “their due”, which is used here, as was stated by Mujahid and others. The dowery which he gave to his wives was twelve and half `Uqiyah (measures of gold) so they all received five hundred Dirhams except for Umm Habibah bint Abi Sufyan, to whom An-Najashi, may Allah have mercy on him, gave four hundred Dinars (on behalf of the Prophet ) Safiyyah bint Huyay, whom he chose from among the prisoners of Khaybar, then he set her free, making her release her dowery. A similar case was that of Juwayriyah bint Al-Harith Al-Mustalaqiyyah — he paid off the contract to buy her freedom from Thabit bin Qays bin Shammas and married her. May Allah be pleased with them all.

    (those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses whom Allah has given to you,) means, `the slave-girls whom you took from the war booty are also permitted to you.’ He owned Safiyyah and Juwayriyah, then he manumitted them and married them, and he owned Rayhanah bint Sham`un An-Nadariyyah and Mariyah Al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibrahim, upon him be peace; they were both among the prisoners, may Allah be pleased with them.

    (and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts) This is justice which avoids going to either extreme, for the Christians do not marry a woman unless there are seven grandfathers between the man and the woman (i.e., they are very distantly related or not at all), and the Jews allow a man to marry his brother’s daughter or his sister’s daughter. So the pure and perfect Shari`ah came to cancel out the extremes of the Christians, and permitted marriage to the daughter of a paternal uncle or aunt, or the daughter of a maternal uncle or aunt, and forbade the excesses of the Jews who allowed marriage to the daughter of a brother or sister which is an abhorrent thing.”

    The last portion offers another answer to the point you raised.

    “Why would GOD give the man 72 virgins in heavon and not the woman?”

    The following should answer your question:
    http://www.islamonline.net/ser.....9503544706

    http://www.islamonline.net/ser.....9503549252

    “why would GOD have wine in heavon, but not on earth for muslims?”

    Because the wine of Heaven will not cause intoxication. Surah al-Waqia:18-19 explain this quite clearly:

    “With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:

    No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:”

    The point here is that you are incorrect in asserting that we have no idea of why such things are as they are. In contrast, you admit that you have no idea why Jesus (your god) is so bloodthirsty in the Old Testament, but so loving in the New Testament. You admit that you have no idea why Jesus (your god) ordered Moses to murder infants. I wonder if you have the answer to this question: Is your god truly pro-life? You may not know why your god does the things he does, but we sure do.

    “why did GOD create adam and eve in the first place. why wouldn’t he just go without them? Do you think he created them to entertain himself?!!”

    Sura Ad-Dhariyat:56-58 says the following:

    “I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

    No Sustenance do I require of them, nor do I require that they should feed Me.

    For Allah is He Who gives (all) Sustenance,- Lord of Power,- Steadfast (for ever).”

    Another question which apparently the Bible does not answer for you, but the Quran answers for Muslims.

    “Adam and eve were created without sexual intercourse, but it says in the Bible (and maybe in the Quran, not sure) that GOD created them!! GOD created them just like he created the universe. It wasn’t the same thing with Jesus, as you know and I know, that a holy spirit descended on Mary. Jesus was not created!!”

    I don’t where you get this information from. The Quran says that Jesus was created. Sura Al-Imran:59 proves this:

    “The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.”

    As for the Holy Spirit “descending” on Mary, the Quran does not say this. It says that the Holy Spirit, which is Gabriel (as), came to Mary and gave her the good news of a son. He then blew the soul of Jesus into her and she became pregnant, as Sura At-Tahrim:12 states:

    “And Mary the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).”

    So, the moral of the story is don’t try to misquote the Quran to fit your own beliefs. The Quran is the pure word of God and separates the truth from falsehood. Jesus was not divine. He was a man who worshipped God. That is it.

    “Also, to prove Christianity even more, Christianity is the only religion, that I know of, where miracles in the name of GOD still happen even nowadays!!. I witnessed one myself, and just this past christmas CNN, the news channel (Anderson Cooper), reported a christian miracle where a blind man recovered his vision to 20/20 after being in a chrurch praying (the next day, he was cured)”

    I wonder if Anderson Cooper would have shown the so-called “miracle” that occurred in India in the late 1990s, when Hindu idols were slirping milk from spoons in front of hundreds of shocked on-lookers. Probably not. So, should we all be like you and start worshipping these idols? God forbid. Of course, I am not saying that I don’t believe in miracles. I believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all the other prophets performed miracles. They were a sign of their divine missions. But, not everything which seems like a miracle is a miracle. When a statue of the virgin Mary begins to weep tears of blood in some church, I don’t take that as a sign that I should join the Catholic church and start praying for Mary’s intercession to save me.

    As for your claim that you and I are not so different, I respectfully disagree. We are very different. I don’t worship Jesus as God’s manifestation on earth and that God referred to that manifestation as His “son.” You and I are, unfortunately, very different.

  24. Hi Jesus_follower,

    Unfortunately, I am suffering from a stomach virus, so my response to you may take some time. I am in the middle of it. I will get back to you as soon as possible.

  25. Reply to islamispeace:

    Your argument is very weak as you are asking me why did GOD order something!! the answer is: I don’t know!. I mean, you’re a muslim, so think about it, why did GOD then allow your prophet Muhammad to marry any woman he desired (Quran 33:50),Really!! why would GOD care about the prophet’s wives? Why would GOD give the man 72 virgins in heavon and not the woman? why would GOD have wine in heavon, but not on earth for muslims? why would GOD…on and on from the Quran and the Bible. You don’t know why GOD does things the way he does them, you might take a guess, but you are never sure. there are certainly many questions without an answer. why did GOD create adam and eve in the first place. why wouldn’t he just go without them? Do you think he created them to entertain himself?!! you can’t tell, and you can’t have answers to all questions you might have. GOD created Adam and Eve. Adam and eve were created without sexual intercourse, but it says in the Bible (and maybe in the Quran, not sure) that GOD created them!! GOD created them just like he created the universe. It wasn’t the same thing with Jesus, as you know and I know, that a holy spirit descended on Mary. Jesus was not created!! He is GOD, and there are many places in the Bible that says just that. Mary just carried the child!! even the Quran itself says the holy spirit descended down(in arabic as far as I know, I don’t know about the English translation). Of course I take Jesus as my moral example. He is to be taken as a great moral examples as I can’t find any better teachings than his. The New Testament is filled with Tolerance to others, love, and peace. There is no where in the NT that tells christians to wage wars against the unbelievers. Christianity was spread by 12 students of Jesus. they tell us the story of when GOD came onto earth for the people. I certainly believe it. Also, to prove Christianity even more, Christianity is the only religion, that I know of, where miracles in the name of GOD still happen even nowadays!!. I witnessed one myself, and just this past christmas CNN, the news channel (Anderson Cooper), reported a christian miracle where a blind man recovered his vision to 20/20 after being in a chrurch praying (the next day, he was cured), and many other miracles happen in the name of christ (GOD and only one GOD). In my country, Syria, many muslims even go to the christian cathedrals believing they will be cured and healed, and they do! I have heard many of them talk about it!! Thank GOD we live like brothers down there, and I myself have many great muslim friends that I love and still talk to them every now and then, but the important point to make here is that Jesus is not human as the Quran and the Bible don’t disagree on that point. To my knowledge, this is a proof that he is GOD. So I pray for one and only GOD just like you do. it is just that I recognize that it was GOD that came down (Jesus) just like what the Students of Jesus told us, so there is really not much difference between me and you. Let’s enjoy praying to the Lord! Love and Peace.

  26. Jesus_follower said the following:

    “we are not trying to hide what moses did. who cares!! we follow Jesus and the new testament. the New testament replaces the old testament. It’s funny how any time you muslims try to bash on the bible, you go and bash on the OT. The quran itself has many stories from the old testament. We are called christians, not Jews. our book is the new testament. the only reason the old testament is part of the bible is because it predicted the coming of Jesus, and that’s it. Jesus is our moral example and he is unmatched by any prophet or human.”

    The problem is that you believe that Jesus is God. Therefore, it was Jesus who ordered the murder of infants. Apparently, he didn’t see anything wrong with slicing up babies (so much for being pro-life). If he is your “moral example,” kindly explain why he ordered Moses to murder children. The fact is that as a Christian, you are in denial about the barbaric acts portrayed in the Bible. The OT is not just part of the Christian Bible because “it predicted the coming of Jesus.” It is part of the Christian Bible because Christians believe that it is the unaltered word of God. The New Testament simply serves to replace much of the Old Testament, but that still does not change the fact that the Christian god, who is Jesus, did call for infanticide, and did not consider it a sin.

    “one thing I don’t understand about my muslims brothers is the following: It does not take a scholar to conclude that Jesus is God from the quran itself. Just ask yourself as a muslim, how was Jesus born? it’s clearly stated in the Quran as it is stated in the bible that Jesus was born without sexual intercourse, which clearly says that he is not human.”

    And one thing I can’t understand is how Christians misinterpret Jesus’ birth as somehow being a sign of his divinity. Jesus (pbuh) was not the only one who was born without one man and one woman having sexual intercourse. The first humans, Adam and Eve (pbut), were also born without the need of two individuals having sex. Both came into existence without the need for parents. Jesus (pbuh) came into existence with the need for a mother. That is how he was born. Therefore, his birth, while miraculous, was not at all unique. Based on your argument, it seems more plausible to worship Adam and Eve as gods, rather than Jesus. Of course, that is blasphemy of the highest caliber. There is only One God, and all glory is His. This God is not called “Jesus.” He is called Al-Rahman, Al-Rahim, the one and only Allah. He is the only one worthy of worship. Jesus (pbuh) is His servant, and bows only to Him, just as you should.

  27. Admin, there is no need to swear at christians like that. if someone swears at muslims, please accept my apology for it. I am sorry, and any abusive language is not really needed as we should all have a constructive conversation.

    Second, we are not trying to hide what moses did. who cares!! we follow Jesus and the new testament. the New testament replaces the old testament. It’s funny how any time you muslims try to bash on the bible, you go and bash on the OT. The quran itself has many stories from the old testament. We are called christians, not Jews. our book is the new testament. the only reason the old testament is part of the bible is because it predicted the coming of Jesus, and that’s it. Jesus is our moral example and he is unmatched by any prophet or human.

    one thing I don’t understand about my muslims brothers is the following: It does not take a scholar to conclude that Jesus is God from the quran itself. Just ask yourself as a muslim, how was Jesus born? it’s clearly stated in the Quran as it is stated in the bible that Jesus was born without sexual intercourse, which clearly says that he is not human. for a human to be born, an intercourse has to take place between a man and a woman. No person on this planet ever was born like Jesus was born;FROM A SPIRIT. it’s so easy to realize that the holy spirit came down on Mary and produced Jesus from nothing. It’s in the Quran and in the bible as well. that’s why we, christians, say that Jesus is part human and part GOD, and it is loud and clear in the Quran itself. all you need to do is sit down and think about it!! if he is not human, then he is GOD as I don’t think there is anything in between. you are either human or GOD!!

    again, I apologize for any misconduct by anybody who claims to be a christian and going and insulting anybody else including muslims.

  28. macintologist, where did you find those extracts from the Christian Bible, you know as well as I do that it’s not in there… There’s nothing to fear from the Christian Bible, why don’t you read it so you can have some idea what you’re talking about when you do criticise it?

    The admin message regarding hate language against muslims is quite interesting: It seems fine to have hate language posted at non-muslims, but not the reverse… The term for that is “hypocrisy”.

  29. [Admin: Deleted for hate language against Muslims. Go and burn in Hell when you die, you filthy Trinitarian pagan worshipper of a naked man.]

  30. Most of your above links dont work and majority of your articles have disappeared :(

    Can you restore them?

    E.g What About The Killing of Ka’ab bin Al-Ashraf? and The Killing of Abu ‘Afak and Asma’ bint Marwan?) Links dont work :-|

  31. “The difficulty here is that, no matter how loudly a Jew/Christian shouts these objections, they have no power to overcome the historical fact that Moses was a robber and a murderer.”

    Us Christians do NOT deny this fact as it really does not matter, as Jesus Christ the son of the only living true God is who we follow.

  32. source:http://spl.haxial.net/religion/moses/

    > Interestingly, in God’s law to Israel the primary distinction between
    > rape and consent was whether a woman screamed for help.

    Apples and oranges; the laws you cite (which are bad enough as they are) deal with rape of Israelite women, in surroundings where help was
    available. If no one was around, that standard didn’t apply. Obviously, for captive virgins of an enemy the men of which had already been slaughtered, there could be no possible help, and thus no reason to scream for help. Are you seriously suggesting that because of that,
    those women were not raped? Why do you have such trouble acknowledging that the israelites saved enemy virgins as sex slaves, and that god
    condoned this practice? Three times now you’ve responded, but have never answered that repeatedly-asked question. Does the bible embarrass you in that regard?

    >Interestingly, in God’s law to Israel the ?>primary distinction between rape
    > and consent was whether a woman screamed for help.

    I can just imagine one of these women saying: “Oh, you’re the nice foreign
    man who brutally murdered my father, mother, brother and friends and razed
    my town to the ground. You want me as your bride? Oh, I am so thrilled that
    you asked me!!! Praise God!

    If the parents had to show the blood stained bed-sheet of the first night as proof of the girl’s virginity (as directed in the law of Moses) there might be a slight problem if the husband had killed both her parents as commanded by God … and, of course, if one had to make the woman bleed on the wedding night then it really wouldn’t hurt her at all … much …because God would protect her from pain. I can imagine what a joyous celebratory wedding it must have been for these captured “brides”. It might help if you used your God-given brain now and then.

    –There is not even one verse in the NT that condemns what you have read above.

  33. macintologist

    WARNING:
    This post contains explicit description of violence which may be upsetting to some readers.

    A quote from the Christian Bible (also in the Hebrew Bible):

    In the following story, you see through the eyes of Moses. You are Moses.

    It is a joyous day for you. The war against the Midianites is finished, the Lord God has blessed you, and you have been victorious. You have taken all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and taken the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods, as the Lord commanded you.

    Two of your soldiers come towards you, between them there is a young Midianite woman. They grasp her shoulders and clothes tightly to prevent her from escaping. In her arms, she protectively holds her small baby. Seeing this, you tell your soldiers to hold her, and you stride towards her. As you reach for her baby, she struggles to free herself, but your soldiers hold her well.

    The baby cries as you grapple with him, trying to pull him away from his mother. Suddenly, you give the mother a heavy slap across the face. In the moment when she is stunned, you pull her baby away from her. Her voice thick with emotion, she says, “Please don’t take my baby! PLEASE! Please I beg you!”

    Without answering her, you carry the crying baby away, but order your soldiers to bring the mother. After a short walk, you reach a rocky patch of ground that is littered with jagged beige stones of medium size. Using both hands, you raise the baby, still crying, above your head.

    The mother screams frantically, “NOOOO!!! PLEASE DON’T KILL MY BABY! I beg you! I will do anything for you, anything! PLEASE!!”

    You ignore her pleas. With all of your strength, you hurl the baby towards the stones. The mother covers her face with her hands, unable to look at the imminent death of her baby. There is a loud cracking sound as the baby’s skull hits a rock and breaks, along with other fragile bones. However the baby does not die instantaneously. His arms and legs slowly twitch as his blood starts to seep out of his broken body and stain the rocks and the ground with bright redness. After some time, his body ceases twitching, and he is dead.

    The mothers legs have collapsed, and she has fallen to the ground. Tears are streaming down her face making dirty streaks, and her body is shuddering with uncontrollable sobs.

    You look at what you have done, and you feel happy. You smile at your soldiers. You feel honored to be serving the almighty God. You turn to face your people, and you say unto them, “Have ye saved all the women alive? Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

    You gaze with approval as a group of your men kick the legs out from underneath a Midianite girl of about 14 or 15 years of age, causing her to fall to the hard ground. She screams in terror and kicks frantically, but your men hold her arms and legs, stretching her out on the ground. One of your men pulls up her dress and examines her hymen, poking and prodding with dirty fingers splattered with dried blood from earlier activities, in an attempt to determine whether she is a virgin and thus whether she will be killed or kept alive for the pleasure of the men.

    Satisfied that she is a virgin, your men then proceed to throw dice to determine who will have sex with her first. You nod, and praise and thank the Lord for all that He has given you today.

  34. Where is this article, “The Young Marriage of Aishah” why was it pulled down or has it been shifted??

    http://www.thetruecall.com/home

  35. I’m sorry, we don’t have such an article in the first place. Could you please explain?

    Best regards.

  36. Where is your “Islamic Threat Industry” posting? Please repost.

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